Press Conference at 8

[Beebityboo]

Says Peston. Predictions?

@Oodlenoodle12

#itsgettingweird Boris didn't categorically say that the lockdown would end by Feb half term. He said they want to get the top 4 groups vaccinated with the first dose by then. That's an aim, not a definite end date.

I meant he'd stated schools shut until feb half term. As in we had a definitive date they were definitely shut until.

Rather than the shit show of uncertainty we've had up until now.

[quote Calmandmeasured1]*@borntohula

so no 'vulnerable' children will be in school at all tomorrow?
Vulnerable and keyworker's children will be in school. Gov site should be updated, if not by now, very shortly.[/quote]
Vulnerable children may not be in tomorrow.

HT will - again- need to change what they do, sort staffing etc.

We are on plan E since 18/12.

@GhostPepperTears

Don't do this, people. Don't take all your fear and anger and grief and worry and frustration and target it at each other on here.

It won't help. It won't make anything better.

Different people have different worries, but everyone is just doing what they can to drag themselves through this shit storm.

👏👏👏

I would rather triple digit unemployment and sky high national debt, shit as it will be for generations, than 600,000 more deaths

But what if we accept the devastation and it turns out the deaths are sadly inevitable anyway, because as a PP said you can't outrun a virus?
And before anyone asks, I agree completely that absolutely nobody's disposable ... but then none of us are immortal either

"I could accept 600,000 extra people dying"*@Xenia

Even Boris Johnson won't go this far. And given the low moral standards that man has, that's saying something.

Chilling that any life is considered worth sacrificing in this way. As a pp said, all the other things can be overcome. Not easily or quickly, but they can. Death can't.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I would rather triple digit unemployment and sky high national debt, shit as it will be for generations, than 600,000 more deaths

But what if we accept the devastation and it turns out the deaths are sadly inevitable anyway, because as a PP said you can't outrun a virus?
And before anyone asks, I agree completely that absolutely nobody's disposable ... but then none of us are immortal either

In that case, we tried our best. But what we didn't do was regard human lives as dispensable.

The vaccines will save lives. We are not in the 'just let it rip through' 🤮 position now. But we do need to take drastic action for now.

@Butterymuffin

They can’t all be overcome at all.

We know that the poverty, loss of education and mental health issues caused by lockdown will cause deaths or the shortening of lives.

From BBC Twitter

BTECS meant to happen in the next few days will go ahead as we understand it
Takeaways from pubs will stop
You can still move house

It it’s not just about the deaths. It’s about the huge strain on services caused by rampant Covid. ‘Accepting’ 60000 deaths is a non starter as the impact of all those people being initially seriously ill will cause a load of problems. Unless you think we should not treat them? Leave them to die in the street maybe?

Given the amount of things you don't know, as evidenced by your construction worker neighbour furlough post, I don't find any point you have to make about what 'we know' convincing, @LoudTree

We are not in the 'just let it rip through' position now

Not yet, no - however I genuinely wonder whether, in the end, this will become the only option left
I don't imagine it would be a pleasant option, but I'd like to think at least some thought's being given to if it becomes necessary

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I would rather triple digit unemployment and sky high national debt, shit as it will be for generations, than 600,000 more deaths

But what if we accept the devastation and it turns out the deaths are sadly inevitable anyway, because as a PP said you can't outrun a virus?
And before anyone asks, I agree completely that absolutely nobody's disposable ... but then none of us are immortal either

You can hide from a virus. And then wait for it to die out, which will be quicker with a vaccine.

I had gut feeling against Lockdown, but I could be wrong -- often am.
I didn't think we'd get a good vaccine so fast.
Then I thought I was wrong -- we had good vaccines.
Now I doubt the vaccines will be so useful.
So Xenia could well be right...

I don't want my gut instincts to have been right.

@EloraaDanan support bubbles are still allowed. That hasn't changed.

You can hide from a virus. And then wait for it to die out, which will be quicker with a vaccine

Best hope so about the vaccines, because otherwise the hiding and waiting could take an awfully long time

Unless by some miracle they can get organised and adjust for mutations, I've no doubt we'll soon be hearing promises of Nirvana if we can hang on "just a bit longer", but that won't fly for ever and I'd very much like to know what's planned for when it doesn't

Loudtree is definitely on the wind up. You'd consider yourself unlucky if a random neighbour rocked up at your door asking you to go on furlough, but several neighbours on one street? Nah

I’d sacrifice every single one of my family members including myself if I could know for sure my children would succeed in their chooses.

Selfish maybe but they are worth more that anyone else to me including myself. I have my mother crying of the phone that she hasn’t seen my children for months and that every time she hears I love you nanny on the phone she wants to throw it away just to see them. When the time I’m on the phone to anyone I have my children asking is that nanny x or nanny Y? When my own parents haven’t seen anyone but but my brother since March 2020 despite my dads mental health crisis because of my brother job. When my dad hearing voices telling him to kill himself but nobody will help him just pills that don’t work. My mums at braking point but if she cracks he dies basically.

Yet you have people going ah fuck the rules I need a hug. Fuck you. Fuck you all.

To nobody in particular felt good to let it out.

@alwaysandforeverhere
That sounds terrible.

@vickyp0llard

That post makes me feel sick, how could you accept more than half a million people dying?

How can you accept loads of children and young adults having years of their life down the toilet, double-digit unemployment, 6 million people on antidepressants, suicide, lack of socialisation, a mountain of debt for generations and shit quality of life for years? It's not just about lives saved, it's also about actually enjoying that life too.

Throughout human history life has not been about enjoyment. Life is exactly what it says, a tautology if you like. Life is to be alive. The first and most basic of things is to actually be alive,.....after that we can think about finding some enjoyment.

I too am worried about "children and young adults having years of their life down the toilet, double-digit unemployment, 6 million people on antidepressants, suicide, lack of socialisation, a mountain of debt for generations" but this too we must struggle against to improve our conditions, to find solutions and to ensure government support and our support is given to those most in need. But we can only do that if we are alive.

Your right to enjoyment doesn't trump another's right to life. To say otherwise is barbaric.

As for xenia, no words. I used to engage with the crazy making comments. I can't be arsed.

Whilst the virus is what it is, and behaves as it does, we can choose, we have choices. To be able to protect life, but to choose to do otherwise is immoral. To know what needs to be done and instead do nothing is immoral. As a civilised, advanced society we have overcome history where life had so little value because life was "Nasty, brutish & short" The social contract dictates that we invest our trust and sovereignty into the government, we pay taxes, and we follow laws, we respect other's right to life, and we accept that they have some basic fundamental equality with us, and in return we expect some measure of protection for ourselves. To undo this liberal contract with society would be to return to a situation where none of us would be safe in our beds!

Instead we should be questioning why we have created a social system that only partially protects us. If we have a choice between economics and life, we should be asking why this economic system (esp neo-liberalism) can not support the single most basic right, a right to life. Why is this system in contradiction to our welfare? Does this system serve our interests? and what must be done to ensure that we alleviate poverty and offer support to those that are going to need it.

Your right to enjoyment doesn't trump another's right to life. To say otherwise is barbaric.

It's not really that black and white though. There are plenty of actions the government could take to save lives, for example changing the speed limit to 20 or banning all air pollution. They don't because it would inconvenience too many people or stop them from making a living. Yet at the moment we are stopping children from their right to a decent education, business people from their right to run their business, family life etc.

I was fine with it when it was "3 weeks to flatten the curve", but now it looks like it could go on for years with ever-changing goalposts. The new SA strain may already be resistant to the vaccine. Sure, they could develop another vaccine in 6 weeks, but then what happens to all those people already vaccinated? DO they have to go again? And once they develop an updated vaccine, get it out to a million people, there'll probably be 10 new mutations. This is a virus and the only one we've ever eradicated is smallpox; this might end up being one of those things we can't defeat and just have to accept a certain number of deaths, like drugs or terrorism or flu. We accept flu always mutates and we have a new semi-efficacious vaccine every year, and excess deaths in the tens of thousands. We don't lock down. If this is for decades, we can't live in limbo for that long - eventually we have to just go back to normal and everyone takes the risk.

The idea of "hospitals being overrun should be met with lockdown" should be debated without people being called murderers. In fact I disagree with the entire concept that someone is a murderer for infecting someone - if I went to the office in 2019, I accept the risk someone may have bought flu in, I may have it asymptomatically and may pass it on to someone who passes it to their nan. We all took that risk, yet now we must shut away to eliminate all risk.

I just think the "solution" is far too disproportionate for the problem, especially when the money poured into it could have been used to specifically shield those who want/need shielding.

And the real question we should be asking is what the government did all summer - why did they not use that time to bolster NHS resources better? Many countries around the world are poorer/too populated and could not do a lockdown (actually, many that did lock down hard have a horrendous death rate, like Peru) yet their hospitals are not overrun. We should ask why our NHS is so shit and cut to the bone that it needs "saving" from ill people....

Throughout human history life has not been about enjoyment.

There doesn’t seem much point really if you can’t enjoy life

Your right to enjoyment doesn't trump another's right to life. To say otherwise is barbaric.

Try telling that to someone who’s lost their job, their home etc.

vickyp - how could the NHS have been bolstered over the summer? It takes years to train staff and there were already significant levels of vacancies. Some areas of the front line NHS have up to 40% of staff off sick with Covid.
The NHS is in a mess due to years of underfunding. Hopefully the realisation that we need a properly resourced and funded NHS will be a positive coming out of the pandemic.
The only answer is for people to socially distance and for the vaccine to be rolled out, first to those most vulnerable and more likely to need hospital services if they catch Covid.
If people carry on making up the rules to suit themselves, the horrible situation we are in will continue with more deaths and ongoing restrictions.