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Original poster

TUC saying parents should be furloughed if schools are off

208 replies

BubblyBarbara · 04/01/2021 02:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55522104

Maybe this is more AIBU territory but I feel that while this advice is good intentioned, it's actually very dangerous for parents! While it will work for many people, there are others whose employers will put furloughed employees at the front of the queue for potential future redundancies or might even find they continue to operate fine without the employee. Parents who don't need to take furlough and are OK working from home with children present might also feel pressure to be furloughed they wouldn't otherwise. Is TUC being reasonable with this "advice" to employers?

OP posts:
MrsMiaWallis · 04/01/2021 08:19

@Waxonwaxoff0

Furlough WAS designed to keep people at home. Many businesses have been ordered to shut to save lives.
Some businesses were ordered to shut, hospitality and retail.

Many many others carried on working and did not shut, perfectly legally.

finkking · 04/01/2021 08:20

So you agree with @Waxonwaxoff0?

FreiasBathtub · 04/01/2021 08:21

Cryogenically freeze the kids? You're thinking too small MessAllOver. Unfortunately the chimney sweeping and mining sectors have contracted over the last 150 years but we still have a textile industry. Get those nimble little fingers back to work! Probably won't lose too many of them in the looms. And am sure my 6 year old could do some basic data entry. Would help with the family finances too, as all those mums lose the second family income. If we are going to return to the morality of early Victorian capitalism we may as well do it properly.

MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 08:22

I’m not sure you can fairly dismiss someone purely because they’ve been on furlough...surely there has to be more to it than that Confused

finkking · 04/01/2021 08:23

@Dugee

It was a separate point, I put

I don't have a problem with the principles of furlough & think long term it's better to keep people in work particularly mothers.
Some posters sound very bitter.

I was not aware you couldn't have separate points on a post. I also put some & not you so I'm sorry if you were confused.

MrsMiaWallis · 04/01/2021 08:23

Furlough was designed to help businesses that were ordered to shut OR had business damaged by coronavirus. Originally furlough could only be granted if the employee didn't have a job to do. It was a helping hand to businesses.

MrsMiaWallis · 04/01/2021 08:24

@MamaTookMyEyebrows

I’m not sure you can fairly dismiss someone purely because they’ve been on furlough...surely there has to be more to it than that Confused
No you can realise that their job is redundant and make them redundant though.
MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 08:24

Parents of children too young to be left alone cannot go out to work if they have no childcare. Parents of children who need constant supervision cannot effectively WFH all day. Whatever you think about the shifty untrustworthy nature of the parents, that is a fact. What do you suggest parents in that position should actually do? What is your practical solution to this?

This x 1000 really.

gannett · 04/01/2021 08:25

[quote DianaOfTheLakes]@StatisticalSense

Absolutely agree.

The entitlement of some posters I've seen recently is unbelievable. They don't seem to grasp that their employer's primary purpose is to run a profit making business, not provide childcare for their employees.[/quote]
Actually the two can and do go hand in hand.

Top businesses recognise that providing or enabling good childcare will help them retain top talent, which is why eg Goldman Sachs have provided on-site childcare for several years.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40658619

And in that article it mentions that on-site creches were commonplace even in factory jobs out of necessity in the post-war years.

It's also fairly commonplace in Scandinavia and other regions where "family-friendly workplaces" don't just mean lip service.

Even without a pandemic this is what UK workplaces can and should work towards.

gannett · 04/01/2021 08:26

Also, good on the TUC.

Furlough may not be the best answer in every individual situation but any parent struggling with the demands of their employer vs childcare needs will almost certainly find union backup useful in the coming months.

MrsMiaWallis · 04/01/2021 08:26

Even without a pandemic this is what UK workplaces can and should work towards

Maybe large employers, yes.

OldAndWornOut · 04/01/2021 08:27

I think I'd rather be made redundant than be struggling with childcare, worried about the virus, and with the knowledge that I'd be first out the door.

I'd simply find another job (which I'd do while my child is at school, obviously)

MrsMiaWallis · 04/01/2021 08:27

Parents of children too young to be left alone cannot go out to work if they have no childcare

Presumably one can?

MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 08:28

No you can realise that their job is redundant and make them redundant though

No I realise that. But if you have a few employees doing the same job you’re still required to pool and score them. You can’t just make someone redundant in that situation because they’ve been on furlough.

Slightly different if they’re in a unique role but you’d still need to put them through a process, genuinely look at alternative employment etc.

There may also be an indirect sex discrimination argument too.

GoldenOmber · 04/01/2021 08:30

@MrsMiaWallis

Parents of children too young to be left alone cannot go out to work if they have no childcare

Presumably one can?

And the other parent should.... what?
MamaTookMyEyebrows · 04/01/2021 08:30

It’s established in employment case law that caring responsibilities fall primarily on women and so if you’re dismissed due to those caring responsibilities you may have a prima facie discrimination case.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 04/01/2021 08:35

Also people saying "school isn't childcare" why are schools providing childcare for key workers then?

Waxonwaxoff0 · 04/01/2021 08:36

MrsMiaWallace and if they are a single parent?

Hellandcoldwater · 04/01/2021 08:45

Public sector employees can't be furloughed. The public sector is overwhelmingly staffed by women. A lot of that work is face to face and can't be done from home.

It's all very well saying 'ooh well you might have an indirect sex discrimination claim'.

You might. But it will be expensive to bring, take ages, even if you win (and you probably won't) you're not going to get some mega-payout.

MessAllOver · 04/01/2021 08:46

Cryogenically freeze the kids? You're thinking too small MessAllOver. Unfortunately the chimney sweeping and mining sectors have contracted over the last 150 years but we still have a textile industry. Get those nimble little fingers back to work! Probably won't lose too many of them in the looms. And am sure my 6 year old could do some basic data entry. Would help with the family finances too, as all those mums lose the second family income. If we are going to return to the morality of early Victorian capitalism we may as well do it properly.

Maybe this is the solution. Child labour. Get children aged 4 and up involved in manufacturing PPE and such. Then they're properly supervised, doing something constructive and can earn a wage for the family at the same time. And it's work not education so not required to shut under the regulations.

@FreiasBathtub. You might be onto something.

FreiasBathtub · 04/01/2021 08:54

PPE @MessAllOver! Genius! There we go, that's the kind of creative thinking that will get our country out of this mess. Large and growing market, repetitive work suitable for small children and an easy-to-navigate procurement process. Do you have an MP mate to get the contract organised and the first payments made or shall I get in touch with mine?

How old do you think they need to be in order to start doing vaccinations? My 2 year old is pretty stabby with his coloured pencils. It's just a question of precision targeting really.

GoldenOmber · 04/01/2021 08:59

I’m getting my toddler set up as a contact tracer, given considerable skills at saying “WHO DAT?” loudly and on repeat.

MessAllOver · 04/01/2021 09:01

@FreiasBathtub. My 3 year old also loves stabbing things. But his measuring skills aren't great. So he could administer the Astra vaccine if that doesn't need to be split into individual doses but probably not the Pfizer one.

His strengths may lie in packaging. He loves putting things in boxes so could definitely pack surgically masks. He's also a whizz at hand-washing (his nursery is really hot on this) so transmission risk would be limited. I might offer his services if nurseries shut in exchange for a cheese sandwich, apple and chocolate biscuit. It would be cheaper than a babysitter.

user1487194234 · 04/01/2021 09:02

Unfortunately I think a lot of employers have run out of flexibility
We need all staff in to keep the business running or everyone will lose their jobs
And staff without kids are getting fed up with covering,I know that sounds harsh but it's true
Some employees don't help by taking the attitude of ' My DC are off school so I won't be in'

Mousehole10 · 04/01/2021 09:02

This is such a hard situation for everyone. Of course parents with young children cannot work and look after a child at the same time. If you can’t work from home you can’t just leave your child at home unsupervised. Some work from home jobs can’t be flexible enough to work all evening instead, and people will completely burn out trying to do that anyway.

At the same time many employers can’t just furlough people. They need workers to do the jobs, they don’t just have surplus staff sitting waiting and recruiting takes a long time and is expensive. Many businesses are struggling and can’t afford it. Unfortunately the people needing furlough will be the first out whether that’s fair or not because they need people to do the job now, not in a couple of months.

I’m not sure what the solution is really, it’s not fair that families with young children are the most affected in all this but there isn’t a good solution for anyone. If someone brighter than me can come up with a solution then please share!