Why is the whole country in lockdown?

[nevereverplease]

Millions of children are having their education interrupted severely, suffering mental health problems and people are losing their businesses and livelihoods for a disease unlikely to affect them.

Why can it not be that instead, vulnerable people shield (which most are doing anyway) instead of everyone?

People I’m sure will come with the counter argument to say it’s not fair leaving people on their own etc. They could still have a support bubble and it would mean that the whole country isn’t suffering severely as a result.

Is it not logical to have fewer people be locked down as opposed to everyone? Surely that’s just basic logic. I would rather no one suffer from this horrible disease but at the moment it feels like it's 'everyone suffer' because that's the 'fair' way to do it.

Could we not have used the money from furlough and all the other grants to fund the vulnerable whilst shielding.

I say this because 388 people have died aged under 60 with no underlying health conditions. If we go by 34% mortality rate of people admitted to ICU then we are talking about 1141 people under 60 with no underlying health issues needing ICU treatment Since March.

@GypsyLee Julia is that struck-off nurse, I think.

I agree with you OP. People need to accept that we are all going to die some day and we can't control a virus. What if the vaccines don't work anyway- then what ?

What if the vaccines don't work anyway- then what ?

Why wouldn’t the vaccines work? The trials have found the ones approved so far very effective.

It isn’t.

Ok so your idea is that only the vulnerable shield. That’s fine, but that will shut the country down.
It would require the clinically vulnerable and the clinically extremely vulnerable to shield.
We can’t expect the rest of the country to go back to normal and allow those who have underlying health conditions to put themselves at an additional risk.

It would also require the families of those CEV to shield as they would also be at greater risk of bringing it home if things go back to normal.
Your plan may sound easy, but I don’t think you’ve truly considered the implications.

I read about the 388 deaths, although until recently iirc it was 350 ish.
Dh sent me a link, I'll try and see if I still have it.

@nevereverplease

Ok, question here;

Do you think the current system works?

If not, what do you think we could do to change it?

What do you mean by "the current system"?

The lock down from March seemed to work in terms of reducing rates. In my opinion, children should have returned to school before the summer, to continue their education and to not create the huge fear of schools closing again. Schools should have reopened gradually but before garden centres etc.

Then, we would have had a natural break over the summer, with no eat out to help out, and maybe the possibility for "firebreak" style temporary school closures as needed in the autumn term.

God knows if this would have worked, and it definitely would have tanked the economy more in the initial stages given it prioritises schools, but that's my two cents. Not claiming it's a good plan!

I agree with you OP. People need to accept that we are all going to die some day and we can't control a virus. What if the vaccines don't work anyway- then what ?

So in the age of modern medicine and people being able to make an intelligent decision, why should some people accept dying 20 years before their time due to a virus and fuckers not doing as asked

I'll ask again;

Do you think the current system works?

If not, what do you think we could do to change it?

Already shielding. Have been since March
Still have to go out to hospital, doctors, and for blood tests. And have my food delivered, and post. I can't live in a complete bubble

the list is here, eczema is not listed

The list you have posted is those who are at higher risk but it's not a comprehensive list of all pre-existing health conditions. Those who are listed as Covid deaths with pre-existing conditions will not just be those in the "higher risk" category. It's disingenuous to conflate the data of those Covid deaths with a pre-existing condition with people who have been told they are at greater risk.

Opp reading you post makes me feel sad. That there are people like you who are so selfish. You obviously don’t believe in karma.

And to those people saying I have a lack of empathy about death - where is your empathy to children being abused by parents, domestic violence cases, suicide rates, poverty, people being denied cancer treatment and other life threatening conditions because of covid - did some of you not consider that?

As I'm the one who clearly hasn't considered all angles it seems you've missed quite a few here.

I think the phrase "underlying health issues" is misleading. It makes it sound like they were very serious health issues, the like of which only a few people have. Or that they must have been a 'critically vulnerable person'.

The reality is that MOST people have some sort of underlying health issue. They think of themselves as healthy, but would still fall in that category.

Overweight, touch of asthma, heart irregularities, GERD, and so many more.

Those with underlying health issues are not the minority. They are the majority.

I actually appreciate that the OP appears to be listening to the facts presented to them. It's a different feeling to normal mumsnet sadly.

Because the government and the media are deliberately encouraging the spread of fear and exaggeration of risk, so that it too has spread like a virus.

Just think about it for a moment OP, it's bleeding obvious.

And how are you going to do that op?

You mean all those senior doctors and surgeons and teachers and civil servants and politicians and engineers and social workers in their fifties and sixties with high blood pressure. How are you going to run the country without them? Or should they all abandon their posts and shield? The country would grind to a halt within days.

Maybe think again !

@happystone I'm selfish for wanting education for children and business not to go under and lose their livelihoods and poverty not to increase and all the other issues as a result of lockdown.

I'm the selfish one, because I haven't considered the effects of lockdown.

By the way, to clarify (before someone kindly starts twisting my words) I think we need measure in place - plenty of them. But right now, the strategy is not working.

I'm not saying we should all live without restrictions - at all.

people being denied cancer treatment and other life threatening conditions because of covid - did some of you not consider that?

Well they're not going to be able to have their cancer treatment or any other treatment because Covid would be so rampant and limmediate life threatening will always take priority over something that could be postponed until the following week.

It's the lack of understanding about capacity and staffing that baffles and angers me in equal measure.

It is hard and for people that don't know any vulnerable people it seems easy etc... I think the problem is this would have had to be done when cases were low to even have a chance of working. As it stand the horse has bolted already so it will now not work.

The only way it would be possible too is to give carers huge amounts of money to agree to live in care home for say 3 month periods and then switch them over after tests etc to make sure there is no virus coming in or out.

I do agree with the main point tho that the current strategy is not working atall.. There is not one person that can argue that. We can blame the government all we want but if british people were more compliant we wouldn't have such big issues... We love our freedoms during normal times but because of that we are struggling when they are being taken away.

The government have made many mistakes yes. However if the British people were more sensible we would not be in this mess.

The current system doesn't work to my way of thinking , but, as someone already said, really a lot of the damage has been done through weak choices made early in the pandemic . I think a better approach would have started with closing borders back in February but it's too late for that

The current system almost works to balance hospitals and economy. No one wins because this is a lose lose situation. With the new strain being more infectious, we need to tilt the balance further towards hospital /society / basic protection and away from economy /schools

That would probably be easier if virus was less rampant, so , a very strict wfh...if you worked from home in the last lockdown you must do so now, no more than 1 person shopping, churches and youth sports closed , and probably schools also closed for a couple of weeks ....till we are certain we can contain things . News from Kent is promising in that regard. More financial support for people isolating , And then roll out the vaccine and breathe

@nevereverplease

And to those people saying I have a lack of empathy about death - where is your empathy to children being abused by parents, domestic violence cases, suicide rates, poverty, people being denied cancer treatment and other life threatening conditions because of covid - did some of you not consider that?

As I'm the one who clearly hasn't considered all angles it seems you've missed quite a few here.

Can you not see though that being concerned about all those things as well as Covid is what is driving most of us in thinking these measures need to continue or strengthen? Why are cancer referrals down? Because covid is overwhelming the health service. Mental health services are adversely affected because covid is not contained . What will happen to all of these things you have referred to if it is left to run even more wild?? Do you think that by easing restrictions that somehow, magically, cancer will suddenly be treated again, MH will improve, suicides lessen - all while hundreds of thousands are dying and becoming severely disabled? It just makes no sense at all to think that somehow those things would improve if we didn't try to contain this thing. It baffles me that after all this time people can't see this.

This document involves some lists of the pre existing conditions counted. It includes fractured femur, glaucoma and obesity. All those people at death's door, eh?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales

Yet again despite all the months that have passed you realise from the OP that people simply still don’t understand the basics of the problem.

It makes me feel so frustrated but I really believe this is the government communications team’s fault for simply overestimating the public’s capacity to grasp the knock on effects of this virus.

They needed to make different 5 minute public information films with clear graphics explaining the issues right at the start. They assumed a level of understanding that most people simply don’t have. The lack of basic critical and lateral thought is fairly shocking at this stage in so many people