AIBU to stand up for children and parents...

[alwaysraining123]

... and say that closing schools is not an option. Some observations.

(1) millions of children will suffer poorer mental health, educational deficits and be at risk of physical harm.
(2) if schools close now the government will struggle to get them back open.
(3) the unions are playing a highly political game preying shamelessly on people’s fears.
(4) online learning is of no use for most of the primary school years. Parents basically need to be available all day to support children.
(5) more parents are going to find themselves unable to work causing more financial hardship. This won’t affect your middle class sahps or people who can work from home as much- there are people who actually have to go out of their house to earn a living.
(6) if you’re parent and you’re worried you can keep your child at home.
(7) educational transmission of the virus is low and infection control standards can be escalated where needed.

Whatever is done we need to place maintaining educational provision for children at the heart of it. We need to make it work...there’s no other option.

Your observations are incorrect I'm afraid / are big anecdotal generalisations. There is actually a fair amount of transmission in secondaries in certain areas. 'Millions' of children are not at risk of physical harm when not at school. All primary children do not need parental support 100% of the time to access online learning. My 6 yo didn't. Infection control can't be escalated in rooms that are too small in normal times where you need to be with 30 children for an hour.

Nothing wrong with the sentiment - I am a teacher and desperately want schools to be open for my students and my own child. But at the moment things really are critical in the area I am in- we just cannot do it without an enormous surge in cases.

For some children lockdown is unbearable, for some it is better than being in school, for most it is somewhere in the middle. They are resilient enough to survive a few weeks of this. I sincerely hope we can get it under control in that timeframe though.

Agree OP. Daughter is a primary teacher and she agrees schools should be open.

@toocold54 I’m not criticising teachers. As I said I just hate the view that being worried about how on earth i will manage meaning I can’t be bothered.

christinarossetti

Unions are not calling for a strike.

Yes they are. It's a "walkout", which is a strike

How on earth can you be 'all for strict lockdowns' and also advocate the groups with the highest rate of infection which are driving community infection return to over-crowded classrooms with no mitigation measures.

Classrooms are not crowded
Young children are some of our most vulnerable members of society but so far it seems, unaffected seriously by the virus
Young children are not spreading the virus as much as teachers unions make out

YY to some children not being safe at home. They're not safe between the hours of 3.30pm and 8am, or at weekends or during school holidays either.

So why make their awful abusive situations worse by closing down their only respite or even escape from abuse, Schools

It is social services who have a duty to these children, except they can't fulfil it because successive governments have cut their services to the bone.

This comment makes me so angry. Stop passing the buck fgs. While children are in school, the staff is are the childs primary carer. It is a place of refuge for abused children and many cases of abuse and neglect are brought to light in schools and especially for those young children who have nowhere else to turn.

If I saw a child everyday at the bus stop, during the week, who was showing consistent signs of abuse, constant bruises or injury, no coat in winter, no shoes etc. I would damn well report it. Why the hell wouldn't any decent person report it. What would you say someone should do in that situation, say "oh that's social services job" and turn away? No, no ,no

Teachers are with children all day. You telling me they don't report it? They are duty bound to by law to report it.

Children need school. This has gone on to long. Complain about your work environment, kick up a fuss, but if you walk out, you're walking out on so many children who desperately need to be in school and not just for education

Rates of transmission of covid in educational settings is different to rates of covid in children. There is little evidence of transmission in the educational setting meaning the risk to teachers is limited.

@Mittens030869 very sorry to hear of your issues. I would happily take that risk to get my kids in school. But that isn’t my point.
I’m not saying schools are safe or teachers are to blame I’m saying my concern isn’t because I want to outsource my responsibilities. I would rather there was no remote
Schooling at all. I could manage that whilst WFH. I can’t supervise multiple kids on different platforms and devices whilst trying to work. That worries me. That’s all. I think that worry is justified and not due to me being a lazy mare.

Yanbu.

I work for a large tech company in London.
All middle classes and mostly Tories.
Every single one of my co-workers has maxed out their (generous) additional childcare days and need/want schools open.

Incidentally I don't disagree that the NEU is politicising the issue. But more circumspect unions are also saying the same thing.

Those agreeing with OP because your school has no cases- mine was like that too. Under control for Sep/Oct. Then Nov/Dec things completely spiralled- presumably due to new variant as we are London. It would be utter madness in our particular area to open now. Doesn't mean that is true of all or even most areas.

[quote farfallarocks]@SansaSnark cancer and suicide are the most likely causes you are right.

I’m not saying we should open schools. I am saying it’s horrible to hear that I can’t be bothered to look after my kids ( by teachers on here) when actually I’m just stretched to the limit, worried, anxious, trying to save 60 people from redundancy and their own mental
Health challenges and not totally neglect my own children.[/quote]

It is horrible to hear. But one person said it not 'teachers'.

It's also horrible to hear that as teachers we are lazy or don't care about the children in our care which some people are saying.

None of these things are true.

We need to direct anger at the government for not supporting parents to work and homeschool and not supporting schools to stay safe.

Yabu

You don't speak for me.

Shut the schools. That's what the majority of parents, teachers and scientists want.

@Flaxmeadow

christinarossetti

Unions are not calling for a strike.

Yes they are. It's a "walkout", which is a strike

How on earth can you be 'all for strict lockdowns' and also advocate the groups with the highest rate of infection which are driving community infection return to over-crowded classrooms with no mitigation measures.

Classrooms are not crowded
Young children are some of our most vulnerable members of society but so far it seems, unaffected seriously by the virus
Young children are not spreading the virus as much as teachers unions make out

YY to some children not being safe at home. They're not safe between the hours of 3.30pm and 8am, or at weekends or during school holidays either.

So why make their awful abusive situations worse by closing down their only respite or even escape from abuse, Schools

It is social services who have a duty to these children, except they can't fulfil it because successive governments have cut their services to the bone.

This comment makes me so angry. Stop passing the buck fgs. While children are in school, the staff is are the childs primary carer. It is a place of refuge for abused children and many cases of abuse and neglect are brought to light in schools and especially for those young children who have nowhere else to turn.

If I saw a child everyday at the bus stop, during the week, who was showing consistent signs of abuse, constant bruises or injury, no coat in winter, no shoes etc. I would damn well report it. Why the hell wouldn't any decent person report it. What would you say someone should do in that situation, say "oh that's social services job" and turn away? No, no ,no

Teachers are with children all day. You telling me they don't report it? They are duty bound to by law to report it.

Children need school. This has gone on to long. Complain about your work environment, kick up a fuss, but if you walk out, you're walking out on so many children who desperately need to be in school and not just for education

This post is so, so misinformed, but I’m just going to pick up on this part: “It’s a walkout, which is a strike.”

No. A strike is where you withdraw your labour and refuse to work.

We are still willing to work, either doing remote learning and/or in school working with key worker and vulnerable children. We’re just not prepared to go into an unsafe workplace and put our health at risk under section 44 of health and safety legislation.

Anyone has that right if their workplace isn’t safe. Not just school staff.

You need to start reading some proper scientific data on this new strain. Fast.

@alwaysraining123

Rates of transmission of covid in educational settings is different to rates of covid in children. There is little evidence of transmission in the educational setting meaning the risk to teachers is limited.

What is your source for this? About 30 teachers in my school caught it (some were ill, some asymptomatic) as children's bubbles burst. Despite compulsory mask wearing, no common spaces open for staff, hand washing stations etc.

@Willyoujustbequiet

Yabu

You don't speak for me.

Shut the schools. That's what the majority of parents, teachers and scientists want.

It was exactly this type of sentiment that made me create a thread on this. I’m glad I’ve given those with an alternative view a place to speak too.

@NeurologicallySpeaking this is the informed view of a member of SAGE.

Transmission in schools is low? 80 odd cases in kids and 14 staff cases in the local high school, it's not even a big school. I wouldn't call that low. I want my children at home. I'm not a "catastrophiser" but it's ridiculous to expect things to carry on as normal. You also need to remember this is someone's workplace. If this was your workplace would you be happy to go in? 30 kids in a small classroom?

There is little evidence of transmission in the educational setting meaning the risk to teachers is limited.

I do hope you're not relying on old data knowing full well that the virus has mutated?

Really? Last I heard sage scientists were the ones wanting schools shut and a full lockdown.

I also want my DDs in school, @farfallarocks especially as I'm still unwell and my DH is returning to WFH. But I was responding to you saying that Covid was a very low risk for under 60s. There's a very low risk of death, but long Covid is a much bigger risk and to young and healthy people too. And it's too often not taken seriously enough.

I don't know what the answer is. As I said, the last thing I want is for schools to close. But with the virus out of control, I think schools are bound to close eventually and it's better to do it earlier than later, as it will then be for a shorter period of time.

And teachers should also be prioritised where vaccinations are concerned, especially those who are older or who have underlying health issues.

@Mittens030869 totally agree with your last post.
@sherrystrull one person on this thread but it’s been a pretty common comment since March usually from teachers or at least those that claim to be on here.

...We are still willing to work, either doing remote learning and/or in school working with key worker and vulnerable children. We’re just not prepared to go into an unsafe workplace and put our health at risk under section 44 of health and safety legislation

So you have replied to my concerns about deprived, neglected or abused primary age children missing out on their school safety net, not with any kind of solution to keeping schools open for them but with concerns for your own safety.

Riiiiight

What about NHS, food retail, other vital services, should they "walk out" too because they are not "safe". Why don't we all just walk out. "Sorry Mrs Blogs, no shopping for you this week, supermarket is shut, people get too close to me at my till and some of them don't wear masks but you can always go on YouTube and remote watch people cooking if you like"

Are our children to stare at more fucking screens for months on end, at 5 and 6 years old,, until we all go bonkers. Is that what teachers want?

[quote alwaysraining123]@NeurologicallySpeaking this is the informed view of a member of SAGE.[/quote]
Again - source? There are many members of SAGE who don't all agree with each other and challenge each other. Clearly many other members disagree!

flax

I think you're conflating the argument for vulnerable children with your desires for your own children so it's understand that the poster should respond to what is obviously the task issues for you-your kids. Please stop weaponising vulnerable children as this teacher had probably done more for them than you ever will. You know perfectly well she has no desire for any six year old to go bonkers. I expect you're also aware that being a Sainsbury's worker and having 30 6 year olds clamouring against you are quite different things. You're being quite offensive and frankly I don't see why any teacher would be inclined to risk getting Covid teaching children from families with an attitude like this.

I agree Roth all of this apart from:

(5) more parents are going to find themselves unable to work causing more financial hardship. This won’t affect your middle class sahps or people who can work from home as much- there are people who actually have to go out of their house to earn a living.

People who can work from home are working, of course it'll Bloody affect them, stop assuming if we are WFH we are taking the piss

alwaysaining

It's starting to feel like always straining for facts that. Aren't. Quite. There.

Classrooms are not crowded

My classroom sits 24 but I have 32 in my class who are perched on the end of desks and don’t have enough space for their A4 books.

For those saying schools shouldn’t be closed because it’s more damaging to them etc if your child is tested positive they will need to have 2 weeks off anyway.
Surely it is better they are having two weeks off with the rest of the school instead of everyone being off at different times. That’s how I look at it.