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how would you have handled covid if you were pm ?

198 replies

warmandtoasty2day · 02/01/2021 14:08

so many boris slaggers on here and arm chair scientists, but i'm curious to know how would you have done from the start in dealing with this?
i'm an ordinary person in the street, good education, up to now, life time of common sense and have had a large family but i wouldn't begin to know where to begin on this one Confused.

OP posts:
StCharlotte · 03/01/2021 23:28

@EmmanuelleMakro

Like Sweden.
You might want to check Sweden's numbers...
lljkk · 03/01/2021 23:34

I wonder how many of the airplane travellers are business... engineers and technical experts, some scientists, diplomats. A lot of the oil rig workers are European residents, for instance.

jessstan1 · 03/01/2021 23:36

Probably very badly.

PicsInRed · 03/01/2021 23:43

@lljkk

I wonder how many of the airplane travellers are business... engineers and technical experts, some scientists, diplomats. A lot of the oil rig workers are European residents, for instance.
And most of that can be done on...zoom.

Oil riggers are the essential international travel equivalent of airline pilots. Their physical travel is actually essential - like pilots, they'd just need plenty of regular tests.

The rest of them need to sit at their kitchen table and zoom like everyone else.

Oliversmumsarmy · 03/01/2021 23:49

StCharlotte

You might want to check Sweden's numbers

Actually about 200 less per million people less than us and similarly less than places like Spain. Definitely less than Italy that had really harsh lockdowns and 1/2 the number of Belgium

I don’t think they had 1 Covid death in the last couple of days.
And they haven’t completely trashed the economy

lljkk · 03/01/2021 23:51

Most Engineers need to work hands on.
Auto manufacturing, gas works, all sorts of high tech sectors.

Even things like IT systems or new scientific systems - best to be shown how to use the equipment in person.

freakyfairy · 04/01/2021 00:01

Also essential....any crew on board a ship. So depending on size 4/5 engineers, 4/5 deckies (including the captain), a welder, a motorman (maybe) and a cook. Then let's not forget that each ship needs two teams one on at a time whilst the others are off. Cannot be done over zoom 🤣🤣

PicsInRed · 04/01/2021 00:22

@freakyfairy

Also essential....any crew on board a ship. So depending on size 4/5 engineers, 4/5 deckies (including the captain), a welder, a motorman (maybe) and a cook. Then let's not forget that each ship needs two teams one on at a time whilst the others are off. Cannot be done over zoom 🤣🤣
As long as they won't be hitting Wetherspoons, hugging Granny, putting their infected darlings in school - and will remain on the ship - I don't see any issue there.
PicsInRed · 04/01/2021 00:25

Even things like IT systems or new scientific systems - best to be shown how to use the equipment in person.

A lot of this can and is already being done by zoom.

Noellodee · 04/01/2021 00:26

I would have been Queen Jacinda II.

freakyfairy · 04/01/2021 00:43

Well @PicsInRed their little darling may need to go to school...I know mine do! I'm a key worker...as is my dh (who works in shipping) so they have to I'm afraid. 🤷‍♀️ but no he doesn't go anywhere at all really when he is home. Maybe the odd supermarket shop, but always well sanitised and with a mask. He has to provide an up to date negative test before he joins the ship.

Northernsoulgirl45 · 04/01/2021 01:14

Earlier lockdown. Maybe a week earlier instead of having baby showers. Closing borders and or quarantine.
Not giving contacts to friends/donors who than produce dodgy PPE or failed app.
Opening up too soon. I vaguely recall having tiers for reopening things once certain levels of infection or lack of were reached. This was abandoned.
Banning mass events at the start.
Not sending untested patients to care homes.
Decent test, track and trace

MuseumGardens · 04/01/2021 01:17

I'd follow the SAGE scientist recommendations to make schools safer and therefore less spread to parents/teachers/the community. I'd put the necessary funding into this.
I wouldn't say "There's no doubt in my mind that schools are safe" when this is a lie, because the sage scientists recommendations were not carried out

LangClegsInSpace · 04/01/2021 03:14

@PicsInRed - no, we did not follow WHO guidance. They advised us to find, test, isolate and care for every case, trace and quarantine every contact. From mid-February our government could not wait to stop contact tracing. From SAGE minutes:

11 February - PHE to work with SPI-M to develop criteria for when contact tracing is no longer worthwhile.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-11-february-2020

18 February - PHE to present a paper at the next SAGE meeting, informed by SPI-M, proposing trigger points for when the current approach to monitoring and contact tracing should be reviewed, revised or stopped.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-18-february-2020

There's nothing in the early SAGE minutes about building up contact tracing capacity, just 'when can we stop doing it?'

In March, Jenny Harries was asked in a press conference why we were not following WHO advice on testing and she basically said we didn't need to because we had a well developed public health system and WHO advice was mostly for poor countries.

(from around 32:40)

We didn't care for every case, instead people were left to struggle at home with no medical care until their lips turned blue, by which time it was far too late for many of them to benefit from treatment.

We still haven't put things in place to enable people to properly isolate or quarantine. Instead we got 'Stay at home with the rest of your household, you'll probably all catch it anyway.'

WHO also advised us to organise our response at the lowest administrative level possible. Instead we've had an extremely centralised response, with the government dictating to local authorities what they must do, ignoring the wealth of knowledge and experience in local public health departments and threatening court action on LAs that step out of line.

Closing borders is a matter of international law. Back in 2003, when SARS threatened to become a pandemic, the then DG of WHO - Gro Harlem Brundtland - issued travel advisories against the worst affected countries. Everyone threw an absolute shitfit and the World Health Assembly (WHO's governing body, made up of representatives of all member states) rewrote the International Health Regulations (a legally binding document on all member states) to set an incredibly high bar for the introduction of any measures that interfere with international trade or travel:

www.who.int/ihr/publications/9789241580496/en/

It's not the place of the DG of WHO to just tear up that legislation and advise countries to close borders. If he had done so then countries would be far, far less likely to report any outbreaks of any diseases in the future, because closing borders is a huge deal.

WHO didn't demand flights continue and borders remain open. This was the most recent guidance for international travel before NZ closed its borders:

www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/updated-who-recommendations-for-international-traffic-in-relation-to-covid-19-outbreak/

Countries are reminded of the purpose of the International Health Regulations to prevent, protect against, control and provide a public health response to the international spread of disease in ways that are commensurate with and restricted to public health risks, and which avoid unnecessary interference with international traffic and trade. Countries implementing additional health measures which significantly interfere with international traffic are required to provide to WHO, within 48 hours of implementation, the public health rationale and relevant scientific information for the measures implemented.

There's no reason to think that NZ did not comply with this. They had a strong public health rationale because they had no signs of community transmission and all confirmed cases were related to international travel.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200319052523/www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12318284" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200319052523/www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12318284

We couldn't have made a similar argument because by the time we started taking it remotely seriously we already had widespread community transmission.

Remember that laughable moment the fool head of WHO further delayed declaring a pandemic by claiming "we no longer use the word pandemic" ... shortly thereafter declaring it a pandemic? Honestly.

I remember it a bit differently from you. They said the word pandemic had no official or technical meaning, which it doesn't. They said they had declared a public health emergency of international concern - i.e. the highest possible level of threat requiring the highest level of response - at the end of January. They said they didn't want to use the word pandemic because it was just a rhetorical word and they were concerned that if they 'declared a pandemic' it would lead some countries to just give up.

They changed their mind because of the alarming level of inaction from some countries ('you know who you are') They hoped that if they 'declared a pandemic', even though it made no practical difference to their advice or response, it would instil the necessary sense of urgency.

Pretty much the next day our PM told us they were going to stop contact tracing and that many of our loved ones would sadly die. So WHO were right the first time.

PicsInRed · 04/01/2021 06:11

@freakyfairy

Well *@PicsInRed* their little darling may need to go to school...I know mine do! I'm a key worker...as is my dh (who works in shipping) so they have to I'm afraid. 🤷‍♀️ but no he doesn't go anywhere at all really when he is home. Maybe the odd supermarket shop, but always well sanitised and with a mask. He has to provide an up to date negative test before he joins the ship.
So like air crew, more regular tests for home based shipping crew. This really isn't either an issue or even relevant to the issue of stopping causal travel during a pandemic.
PicsInRed · 04/01/2021 06:28

There's no reason to think that NZ did not comply with this. They had a strong public health rationale because they had no signs of community transmission and all confirmed cases were related to international travel.

Our early cases were thought to be related to international travel - we could have applied the same restrictions NZ did themselves in mid March. We simply chose not to. We made a choice, other countries made the opposite choice and we were wrong - as was the WHO.

cbt944 · 04/01/2021 07:00

This is really long, and really interesting, I thought, re the way they handled and mishandled things in the USA:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/01/04/the-plague-year

cbt944 · 04/01/2021 07:02

Our early cases were thought to be related to international travel - we could have applied the same restrictions NZ did themselves in mid March. We simply chose not to. We made a choice, other countries made the opposite choice and we were wrong - as was the WHO.

I agree. Baffling choices were made. And continue to be made, or dithered over.

StCharlotte · 04/01/2021 08:18

@Oliversmumsarmy

StCharlotte

You might want to check Sweden's numbers

Actually about 200 less per million people less than us and similarly less than places like Spain. Definitely less than Italy that had really harsh lockdowns and 1/2 the number of Belgium

I don’t think they had 1 Covid death in the last couple of days.
And they haven’t completely trashed the economy

Sorry, that should have read "You might want to check Sweden's recent numbers."

Especially given their population is less than a sixth of that of the UK.

Don't get me wrong, I admired their stance and apparent success at first and it must be hugely disappointing for them having been successful for so many months but unfortunately their chickens have now come home to roost. It gives me no pleasure to say that.

how would you have handled covid if you were pm ?
Athrawes · 04/01/2021 08:28

Phoned Jacinda and asked her to copy me her plan.

notimagain · 04/01/2021 08:51

@lljkk

Most Engineers need to work hands on. Auto manufacturing, gas works, all sorts of high tech sectors.

Even things like IT systems or new scientific systems - best to be shown how to use the equipment in person.

Yep, I'd certainly agree there are some outliers on the "exempt from quarantine list" that need a hard look at but a quick scan of the occupations on it should give some people pause for thought - there are a lot of jobs ( I bet many jobs that some here don't even know exist) that simply cannot be done by zoom.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

LangClegsInSpace · 04/01/2021 13:27

@PicsInRed

There's no reason to think that NZ did not comply with this. They had a strong public health rationale because they had no signs of community transmission and all confirmed cases were related to international travel.

Our early cases were thought to be related to international travel - we could have applied the same restrictions NZ did themselves in mid March. We simply chose not to. We made a choice, other countries made the opposite choice and we were wrong - as was the WHO.

Of course our early cases were from international travel.

We could perhaps have closed our borders at the end of January when we had our first confirmed cases, however in all likelihood this would already have been too late - the virus was already here and beginning to circulate. Also I can just imagine the uproar if we had done that at the end of January when so few people were taking the risk seriously.

By March it was way too late. There's no point in closing your borders if the virus is already widespread in the country and you're not even taking the necessary action to contain it.

NZ's first confirmed case wasn't until 28 February so they had the advantage of an extra month to watch how things were unfolding. They never let community transmission take off and so it made sense for them to close their borders.

How are WHO wrong? The framework is there within the IHR for closing borders and that's what NZ used.

notimagain · 04/01/2021 21:16

@LangClegsinSpace

As you rightly say the first case in the UK wasn't confirmed until 31st January, there is no way any politician of any political shade, or hue, unless blessed with perfect crystal balls Shock would have closed the UK Borders in January.....

NZ's first confirmed case wasn't until 28 February so they had the advantage of an extra month to watch how things were unfolding.

Yep, the relative timelines UK/NZ are interesting..

First case in NZ 28 Feb.
Borders closed to non-residents 19th March, returning residents required to "self-isolate" - sound familiar?
Managed isolation started 10th April.....

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