London Hospital declares Major Incident.

[RubyViolet]

This is frightening, and it’s not the hospital that l have heard about earlier today. This is in South London and l am hearing about a hospital in North London.
www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-london-queen-elizabeth-hospital-oxygen-b1779468.html

What happens next ?

@mrshoho

Get yourself down to a hospital *@Crazycatlady83* and you'll be able to meet one.

Where the hell do you think covid patients needing treatment should go then? How do suppose cancer patients can be protected from covid if it's spreading out of control.

What I’m trying to say is, its absolutely nothing new that we are “making difficult decisions” regarding treatment. Just these difficult decisions now will pit one covid patient against the other, rather than since March it’s been e.g. covid patient v cancer patient. Why is your covid patient taking precedence over the cancer patient? The cancer patient is sent home, given palliative care. If we are going to make difficult decisions, between covid patient v covid patient I’m assuming it will the same.

Given that an absolute massive amount of people seem to be catching covid in hospital, lockdown in the community isn’t going to stop it.

What my original point was, is that completely shutting down discussion, telling people they are wrong and lockdowns are the only way just isn’t working. People aren’t interested (rightly or wrongly) in saving the NHS or your fictional granny. They are prioritising feeding their own family, keeping a roof over their head or seeing their family because their mental health is suffering etc. If you don’t appreciate that, and offer strategies to counter (rather than just shouting people down) lockdowns are doomed to fail because no one will stick to them.

[quote Crazycatlady83]@LittleSpyintheSky
But people are dying of other conditions as well? My friends father died of cancer because his treatment was stopped. A friends cancer diagnosis was delayed and she is now stage 4. Just two examples. (And I still haven’t met someone who has actually had covid!)

What I am saying is that difficult decisions are being made every day. Why is it that covid patients get treatment above these other patients? Their need is more obviously immediate but covid patients aren’t “more deserving” of treatment than cancer patients, strokes, heart attacks etc.

Surely the lockdown argument can’t simply be “I’m right, you are wrong”? Because that is what it has become - with “lockdowners” screaming it’s the only way and now more and more people aren’t believing / following. If you want people to follow the rules, you have to take them with you, understand their arguments and mitigate them.

Cos screaming just ain’t working[/quote]
This is such a stupid, lazy ‘argument’

Why the hell do you think we need to control Covid? Why do people persist in talking about Covid as a separate entity? The very people that COVID poses the greatest risk to are the cancer, respiratory and cardiac patients who are deemed as being more ‘deserving’ of healthcare than covid patients. Giving patients chemo whilst letting covid run riot? What the hell do you think covid does to patients with no immune system? Have you ever WITNESSED how someone with covid presents to A&E? Have you ever seen someone die from covid?

The ignorance is sickening.

@Crazycatlady83

What is your alternative suggestion?

Because the people I know who have cancer/other conditions are the exact people who Covid effects badly. They are the people who are loudest in my friendship group talking about full lockdowns, and the tougher the better.
They don't dare go anywhere as the infections ramp up, so they are effectively on lockdown themselves, a much more harsh one than most other people have, even than the March one.

You argument of thinking of other conditions, to them, who are the people you say you are arguing for, is actually arguing for a hard lockdown to bring things under control so they can get back into the hospitals for treatment, can go into a shop without worrying, can even walk round the park without worrying.

What a strange outlook. Yes people die every day. But for the last however many hundreds of years we've had rules and regulations just about everywhere to prevent and mitigate as far as possible.

Really? Can you point me towards the details of a previous time it would have been illegal for me to enter someone else's home, or invite them into mine? When it would have been impossible for people to go to work as it was illegal for their workplace to open? When you could face being fined for travelling too far from your home to walk in a park? I must have missed all mention of these rules and regulations you refer to.

Why the hell do you think we need to control Covid? Why do people persist in talking about Covid as a separate entity? The very people that COVID poses the greatest risk to are the cancer, respiratory and cardiac patients who are deemed as being more ‘deserving’ of healthcare than covid patients. Giving patients chemo whilst letting covid run riot? What the hell do you think covid does to patients with no immune system? Have you ever WITNESSED how someone with covid presents to A&E? Have you ever seen someone die from covid? The ignorance is sickening.

This.

When anti lockdowners make so much noise about a sudden huge concern for those with cancer and other conditions, they seem to then conveniently ignore that these very people are counted among the vulnerable and usually ECV. When they talk about the 377 healthy people who died as being the ones who should count, they are actually discounting all those with cancer they purport to care so much about.

It's stinking hypocrisy.

And what @LittleSpyintheSky said. How do people who are arguing this way think hospitals should balance care when acute covid cases are piling in at a rate of knots, and when they know those having treatment are the most vulnerable to Covid and therefore they need to try and keep them away as far as possible? Are you really suggesting that covid patients should all be locked in at home and left to deteriorate and die - because that's the logical consequences of this arguments.

Please. Some critical thinking.

I don't often get angry but the last few days seeing some of the things people are saying to repeatedly minimise what is happening, to call those who are concerned 'hysterical' and to shout down those actually in the frontline and patients like Spy; all of these things are making me so very angry and constantly baffled at the lack of basic maths and critical thinking of any sort at all.

@Xenia would you say that if your child was one who died and the Government had done nothing and told us to carry on as normal

The media are too busy talking up the new Brexit deal and not enough about how hospitals are really getting on.
Schools becomes an argument for or against closures too: divide and rule at work again.

There are 16m more people in the Uk than when I was born and at least 16m too many.

Are you volunteering yourself and your family to reduce the surplus population then?

Or are you just assuming it will be other people?

@BamboozledandBefuddled

What a strange outlook. Yes people die every day. But for the last however many hundreds of years we've had rules and regulations just about everywhere to prevent and mitigate as far as possible.

Really? Can you point me towards the details of a previous time it would have been illegal for me to enter someone else's home, or invite them into mine? When it would have been impossible for people to go to work as it was illegal for their workplace to open? When you could face being fined for travelling too far from your home to walk in a park? I must have missed all mention of these rules and regulations you refer to.

Yes really odd. I was replying to your post;

BamboozledandBefuddled
People die every day who 'shouldn't'. It's harsh and unfair but I've never heard that life came with a guarantee that it would be anything different.

You spouting that life is harsh and unfair with no guarantees to justify your thinking that the restrictions we are taking to combat covid are unnecessary. If that is correct then why bother having health and safety rules for just about every single thing we do now. Think of the billions and billions of pounds we wouldn't have to spend if we all just took our chance on being the lucky ones. These current rules are different because it is an infectious disease we are mitigating against.

We are in a difficult situation, none of this is easy but I do get so angry with those who downplay the effect of CV19 and think we shouldn't be taking any of these measures (I may have a Denier as a relative whom I'm currently avoiding talking to) .
My DH is a consultant in an acute specialty and is used to dealing with death and serious illness, we are lucky to be in a region that is at the moment coping ok & in a hospital with a fairly good setup. The other night he broke down and cried, I have only seen him do that a handful of times in the 20yrs we have been together, he's really not that kind of person.
He is a broken man, the unrelenting nature of this past 10months has been really really hard. He gets so fed up with deniers and minimisers because he feels they essentially are telling him all this effort is for nothing when they on the front line know how easy it would be for it to spiral out of control (as evidenced in Italy and the USA)
The lockdowns have had an effect and enabled them to cope but they have made it bearable not easy. In the quieter months they still worked relentless hours trying to catch up with stuff, cover their usual work and plan for this wave. Despite the news stories that all other healthcare is cancelled, it really hasn't been but they have had to change and prioritise things not out of choice but necessity. DH cannot do some of his cardiac procedures because the IC beds are full of Covid patients so the risk is higher than not doing them.
We were doing ok as a region over Christmas - flat rather than rising but rates of admissions have sharply risen over the past 2 days and they are bracing themselves. They are hopeful with the vaccine and have been volunteering time to enable clinics to run and get as many people through the doors but it will take time.
Yes there have been lots of missteps, incompetence and lack of leadership by government, yes it's hard to live through this and job losses are not something to minimise but it could be a whole lot harder if it spirals out of control. It's not just people who at end of life that are dying that are the issue but all ages needing resources and not just for short sharp treatments. You may be tired of the restrictions and that is a valid concern but the other choice is a lot harder and I suspect you'd rather have less choices shopping or going out than having to make the choice as to whether or not you get treated if you become sick (from Covid or something else)

Great post Mad

How do people who are arguing this way think hospitals should balance care when acute covid cases are piling in at a rate of knots, and when they know those having treatment are the most vulnerable to Covid and therefore they need to try and keep them away as far as possible? Are you really suggesting that covid patients should all be locked in at home and left to deteriorate and die - because that's the logical consequences of this arguments. Please. Some critical thinking.

It's not only a lack of critical thinking, though, it's a lack of humanity. I have been astounded by the extremes - healthcare workers like wonky's DH giving their all while other people flout the guidelines for trivial reasons and deny that covid is a real risk.

There was a great documentary by the van Tulleken's earlier in the year (BBC, am sure it's on iplayer) which showed some of the reality of covid and I think we need to see more of this on the TV. People just aren't taking it seriously enough.

I'm relieved to be in tier 4 (albeit a bit late) because at last non-essential stuff will be shut so hopefully there will be less opportunity for the disease to spread.

@wonkylegs

We are in a difficult situation, none of this is easy but I do get so angry with those who downplay the effect of CV19 and think we shouldn't be taking any of these measures (I may have a Denier as a relative whom I'm currently avoiding talking to) . My DH is a consultant in an acute specialty and is used to dealing with death and serious illness, we are lucky to be in a region that is at the moment coping ok & in a hospital with a fairly good setup. The other night he broke down and cried, I have only seen him do that a handful of times in the 20yrs we have been together, he's really not that kind of person. He is a broken man, the unrelenting nature of this past 10months has been really really hard. He gets so fed up with deniers and minimisers because he feels they essentially are telling him all this effort is for nothing when they on the front line know how easy it would be for it to spiral out of control (as evidenced in Italy and the USA) The lockdowns have had an effect and enabled them to cope but they have made it bearable not easy. In the quieter months they still worked relentless hours trying to catch up with stuff, cover their usual work and plan for this wave. Despite the news stories that all other healthcare is cancelled, it really hasn't been but they have had to change and prioritise things not out of choice but necessity. DH cannot do some of his cardiac procedures because the IC beds are full of Covid patients so the risk is higher than not doing them. We were doing ok as a region over Christmas - flat rather than rising but rates of admissions have sharply risen over the past 2 days and they are bracing themselves. They are hopeful with the vaccine and have been volunteering time to enable clinics to run and get as many people through the doors but it will take time. Yes there have been lots of missteps, incompetence and lack of leadership by government, yes it's hard to live through this and job losses are not something to minimise but it could be a whole lot harder if it spirals out of control. It's not just people who at end of life that are dying that are the issue but all ages needing resources and not just for short sharp treatments. You may be tired of the restrictions and that is a valid concern but the other choice is a lot harder and I suspect you'd rather have less choices shopping or going out than having to make the choice as to whether or not you get treated if you become sick (from Covid or something else)

Sympathies to your husband.

I'm slowly recovering from covid touch wood, just over 4 weeks in and still nowhere near normal. I'm also a critical care nurse of 20 years experience.
Worked throughout covid at some risk to myself (have well controlled asthma and hereditary hypertension despite being longtime runner, normal bmi). Ironically caught it off dp who has pretty much stuck to the rules.
I can't read most of the covid threads now. The level of minimisation is relentless and soul destroying. The snarky comments about dementors/ overreaction/ conspiracy theories just wound me up and massively contributed to my already sky high anxiety. HCPs describe the reality of the situation and it's thrown back in our faces with smart arsed keyboard warrior type rebuttals. Absolutely waste of time engaging with them as they don't even read properly what you have to say.
I have witnessed instances of young children losing a parent, another icu patient surviving covid only to find their partner had died of it days earlier, father losing a very close relative to it and then succumbing himself. Tragic but somehow we are being melodramatic to mention it. Sadly people have become so self obsessed they've lost their humanity.

Glad you are on the mend @Schonerlebnis. My uncle was a radiologist of 36 and he died of Covid complications and some people I know have just said ‘Well they lie on death certs to boost the figures’

@Feministicon sorry to hear that about your uncle Sad that people feel the need to say those things. Doubt they'd say it face to face.

I don’t mind so much the people who want it to be true due to anxiety/fear iyswim but the people who are just bloody minded and downright offensive about it, calling people ‘sheep’ for wearing masks etc I just can’t bear.

@Schonerlebnis I'm sorry for all you have been through. It must be so draining to read all that utter crap when you know the reality, you live it.

Twitter is brutal for it. Thousands with their smug smiley face emoji profile pictures banging on about false positives and the hospitals being no more busy this winter and nurses doing tiktok dances. It makes my blood boil so I can only imagine what it does to yours.

I think it's good to remind ourselves that there are plenty of sensible, level minded people who read the science and care about the actual evidence, and show some humanity as well in the way we respond.

Spot on madhairday. You posted a good comment the other day which I referred someone to read. Doubt they did. I actually think some people are trolls and are well aware their remarks will upset others. It's just a big laugh.
I also agree that most people do understand what's going on, it's just the vocal few who shout the loudest.

those people who think it so important for their mental health to see their family - how will your mental health be if you have lifelong disability from covid or have killed off those relatives you look to support you? There is going to very limited treatment for anything now because those cancer patients you claim to be worried about would just die faster if covid overuns the hospitals and the staff collapse.

I can avoid transmitting this so I do. I'd feel extremely guilty if I gave this to anyone because I was unable to act responsibly.

‘My DH is a consultant in an acute specialty and is used to dealing with death and serious illness, we are lucky to be in a region that is at the moment coping ok & in a hospital with a fairly good setup. The other night he broke down and cried, I have only seen him do that a handful of times in the 20yrs we have been together, he's really not that kind of person.
He is a broken man, the unrelenting nature of this past 10months has been really really hard.’

I just wish people would understand. This is our frontline.

Sadly people have become so self obsessed they've lost their humanity.

I agree, and it also really hurts when the vulnerable, and the over 70s and 80s are dismissed as collateral we should not be having to change our lives for (I know that we take measures to stop people dying and society collapsing but that seems to bypass some) - the “they are at the end of their lives anyway” brigade. How do you know and would you be saying the same if it was your beloved relative?

Some people speak particularly brutally of the over 80s and every time I read or hear how unimportant their potential deaths to covid apparently are (a horrible death), I think of my darling 82 year old Dad who lives in another country and is worried he won’t ever see me and my sibling again - and think that the people who talk as if he is nothing can get to fuck.

Some people speak particularly brutally of the over 80s and every time I read or hear how unimportant their potential deaths to covid apparently are (a horrible death), I think of my darling 82 year old Dad who lives in another country and is worried he won’t ever see me and my sibling again - and think that the people who talk as if he is nothing can get to fuck

I agree. I really love my 85 year old PILS and the thought of them dying of covid breaks my heart. Luckily they are in the process of being vaccinated ❤

I agree, and it also really hurts when the vulnerable, and the over 70s and 80s are dismissed as collateral we should not be having to change our lives for

It's not just the elderly they're dismissing. It's also those with health issues. Although I will put bets that most people who are dismissing those don't realise the extent of people in the "health category"-obesity, asthma, I think people on the ASD scale are also included, so a fair number of them would probably be included.