London Hospital declares Major Incident.

[RubyViolet]

This is frightening, and it’s not the hospital that l have heard about earlier today. This is in South London and l am hearing about a hospital in North London.
www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-london-queen-elizabeth-hospital-oxygen-b1779468.html

What happens next ?

They are only using 1500 military personnel for the schools mass testing, not sure how that will actually help!

@LittleSpyintheSky @Xenia

Why does anyone who suggests anything other than full and total lockdown get shouted down? People are allowed to have different views and just because lockdown is main stream, does not mean that it is the only thing that can be discussed?

One of the problems is the government no longer have lots of people sharing their message. Lots of people are “breaking the rulez” in little ways, increasing the spread. If you don’t take anyone with you on your cause of action, it’s doomed to fail.

When people say, hospitals will have to make “difficult decisions” (presumably as to who we save), aren’t we doing this already? Isn’t of giving palliative care to some covid patients, we are denying the patient having their lifesaving heart surgery?

@ineedaholidaynow

They are only using 1500 military personnel for the schools mass testing, not sure how that will actually help!

I thought that too! That wouldn't even be 1 army person per secondary school. It's all bluff as usual.

[quote Crazycatlady83]**@LittleSpyintheSky* @Xenia*

Why does anyone who suggests anything other than full and total lockdown get shouted down? People are allowed to have different views and just because lockdown is main stream, does not mean that it is the only thing that can be discussed?

One of the problems is the government no longer have lots of people sharing their message. Lots of people are “breaking the rulez” in little ways, increasing the spread. If you don’t take anyone with you on your cause of action, it’s doomed to fail.

When people say, hospitals will have to make “difficult decisions” (presumably as to who we save), aren’t we doing this already? Isn’t of giving palliative care to some covid patients, we are denying the patient having their lifesaving heart surgery?[/quote]
Because people are dying who should not be dying. I’m shouting at people like you because you haven’t got a clue about what is happening in the hospitals. I know because I spent 9 nights in there and I am bloody lucky to still be alive. I’m lucky because I caught COVID before Christmas, when there was capacity to put me on CPAP. Whilst I was in there equipment started failing. Those who are going in now will not be so lucky.

If you think it is just the elderly dying - you are wrong.

Come on people - please, please.

People die every day who 'shouldn't'. It's harsh and unfair but I've never heard that life came with a guarantee that it would be anything different.

There's an 8pm curfew in force in Northern Ireland at the moment so I'm not sure why people find the prospect so unrealistic in London.

the result that we have no tax money to pay the salaries of nurses and teachers

Who of course also pay tax. Xenia is always keen to point out that nurses and teachers are paid from the public purse, but not that they are a public good.
We also pay the salaries of politicians and literally billions to their associated cronies and hangers-on, to develop (for example) shockingly ineffective test and trace systems, that are found so lacking it’s considered sensible to require schools to take over with minimal extra funding to implement a much larger mass testing effort at the same time as educating children.

@BamboozledandBefuddled

People die every day who 'shouldn't'. It's harsh and unfair but I've never heard that life came with a guarantee that it would be anything different.

What a strange outlook. Yes people die every day. But for the last however many hundreds of years we've had rules and regulations just about everywhere to prevent and mitigate as far as possible.

@ineedaholidaynow

They are only using 1500 military personnel for the schools mass testing, not sure how that will actually help!

According to the Telegraph (link upthread), it won’t:

But Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders (ASCL), said the support is unlikely to be enough as he called for schools to remain closed.
He said: "We're educationists, we can support the Government and it is good we are going to have some members of the Army.
"But for 3,500 secondary schools, 1,500 troops doing webinars probably isn't the Government response that we were looking for."

@RubyViolet

London School of Hygiene say we must vaccinate 2 million a week, so why are the Government messing around with sending the army in to schools to test. They should be sending the army out to vaccinate. Why are we not focusing on vaccinations right now, do we not have enough ? Have we not developed a system to roll it out .

Yes and where the fuck is the approval for this Oxford vaccine we keep getting told is coming?!

The approval of the Oxford vaccine isn’t down to the Government and I want all the correct checks etc done for that and not rushed through

@ineedaholidaynow

The approval of the Oxford vaccine isn’t down to the Government and I want all the correct checks etc done for that and not rushed through

No I know, but there’s been rumours for a couple of weeks now that the approval is coming any day now.

@LittleSpyintheSky I'm so glad you're okay. I'm with you in your anger and incomprehension at all of this, but I am a frequent patient in respiratory wards so know what the frontline looks like in usual times. I wish you well with your recovery

@BamboozledandBefuddled

People die every day who 'shouldn't'. It's harsh and unfair but I've never heard that life came with a guarantee that it would be anything different.

Ah well then we should stop sinking money into cancer research, or cures and treatment for any diseases, then. Let nature take its course and stop bothering with all this science business.

I don't think we have any good reason to besmirch the integrity of the MHRA, do we? Based on what? Too quick and the people start claiming it wasn't done properly, too slow and what...somehow they're in cahoots and making the whole world wait for a PR stunt? Please.

Lol, wrong thread - I'll take my righteous indignation elsewhere.

@LittleSpyintheSky
But people are dying of other conditions as well? My friends father died of cancer because his treatment was stopped. A friends cancer diagnosis was delayed and she is now stage 4. Just two examples. (And I still haven’t met someone who has actually had covid!)

What I am saying is that difficult decisions are being made every day. Why is it that covid patients get treatment above these other patients? Their need is more obviously immediate but covid patients aren’t “more deserving” of treatment than cancer patients, strokes, heart attacks etc.

Surely the lockdown argument can’t simply be “I’m right, you are wrong”? Because that is what it has become - with “lockdowners” screaming it’s the only way and now more and more people aren’t believing / following. If you want people to follow the rules, you have to take them with you, understand their arguments and mitigate them.

Cos screaming just ain’t working

Get yourself down to a hospital @Crazycatlady83 and you'll be able to meet one.

Where the hell do you think covid patients needing treatment should go then? How do suppose cancer patients can be protected from covid if it's spreading out of control.

Don’t 20% of COVID transmissions happen in hospital, so it is not always a good idea to be in a hospital if you have other underlying conditions to start with. So I am assuming for some consultants they have had to weigh up the pros and cons of giving treatment with the added risk of COVID.

Also as with many things it does seem to be a postcode lottery whether other treatments are happening.

No I know, but there’s been rumours for a couple of weeks now that the approval is coming any day now.

To be fair, the credible rumours have all suggested a couple of days either side of the Christmas holiday, so I expect it will be some time tomorrow, or possibly today.

Why is it that covid patients get treatment above these other patients? Their need is more obviously immediate but covid patients aren’t “more deserving” of treatment than cancer patients, strokes, heart attacks etc.

Well I think you’ve answered your own question there haven’t you? The more critically ill patients there are the more the urgent but not yet critical care has to be postponed. If you are advocating a different approach with Covid patients let’s hear it.

[quote Crazycatlady83]@LittleSpyintheSky
But people are dying of other conditions as well? My friends father died of cancer because his treatment was stopped. A friends cancer diagnosis was delayed and she is now stage 4. Just two examples. (And I still haven’t met someone who has actually had covid!)

What I am saying is that difficult decisions are being made every day. Why is it that covid patients get treatment above these other patients? Their need is more obviously immediate but covid patients aren’t “more deserving” of treatment than cancer patients, strokes, heart attacks etc.

Surely the lockdown argument can’t simply be “I’m right, you are wrong”? Because that is what it has become - with “lockdowners” screaming it’s the only way and now more and more people aren’t believing / following. If you want people to follow the rules, you have to take them with you, understand their arguments and mitigate them.

Cos screaming just ain’t working[/quote]
you don't understand the logistics of care. Once you start treating Covid patients in hospital it seeds throughout, especially the newer strain which is more contagious. So either you treat zero Covid patients in hospital and leave them to take their chances or you take big risks treating others who will have far less chance of survival if they catch it. That said, cancer treatment has not totally stopped in my region, I have 2 friends diagnosed with breast cancer in Spring and both have had operations and are having ongoing chemo. People with strokes and heart attacks are being treated too although with great delays now due to lack of ambulance - again, unless you ban care to Covid patients you can't remove the demand to the service or the need to deep clean between patients. It's not that Covid patients are prioritised, there are more of them and they take far more resources, especially oxygen, which are hospitals are not designed to deliver en masse.

@sima74

Again if people took some personal responsibility for there own health and lifestyle where it comes to smoking,drugs,achol and diet. the demand would be significantly reduced . Everything I listed is directly responsible for a % of the burden on the NHS .Which would in turn leave more funding for people who have sadly succumbs to illness through no fault of there own rather than poor lifestyle choices conditions.

rwalker, this is not being said enough- poor choices= poor health= overburdened healthcare.

But no, people go about doing as they please with regards to smoking, alcohol and sugar consumption plus lack of exercise and wonder why the NHS can’t cope

What are you going to die from? Regardless of lifestyle everyone dies.

@Madhairday

Thank you *@Redinthefacegirl* for sharing. It sounds horrendous. Thank you for all you are doing

Why isn't this more out there in the press?

Doctors are trying to get people to listen, it’s not being published/taken up by journalists/not wanting to panic the country, the narrative doesn’t fit with mean government ruining everyone’s Christmas. It’s horrific. People in ambulances who can’t even get in the hospital. All those saying “what a about asthma/cancer”. People who sadly have cancer are generally stable, people with covid are dying of shortness of breath in front of you, so they need treating as the ones with cancer can manage at home. It sucks and of course everyone wants treating.

But your skiing holiday is more important. And sneaking your friends in your house.

[quote Crazycatlady83]@LittleSpyintheSky
But people are dying of other conditions as well? My friends father died of cancer because his treatment was stopped. A friends cancer diagnosis was delayed and she is now stage 4. Just two examples. (And I still haven’t met someone who has actually had covid!)

What I am saying is that difficult decisions are being made every day. Why is it that covid patients get treatment above these other patients? Their need is more obviously immediate but covid patients aren’t “more deserving” of treatment than cancer patients, strokes, heart attacks etc.

Surely the lockdown argument can’t simply be “I’m right, you are wrong”? Because that is what it has become - with “lockdowners” screaming it’s the only way and now more and more people aren’t believing / following. If you want people to follow the rules, you have to take them with you, understand their arguments and mitigate them.

Cos screaming just ain’t working[/quote]
I've had breast cancer twice. When I was diagnosed for the second time in a year, my risk of dying from TNBC within the next 5 years was one in three. I have less than a year and my risk levels return to normal. I can assure you that I have a more acute understanding of risk than the majority of people out there.

The reason I was hit hard by Covid is that I had had radiotherapy to both breasts and consequently suffered some damage to the lungs. It wasn't something I was particularly aware of - but that was my "underlying condition" that Covid went for. My body flooded my lungs to protect it from Covid. I've had to learn to breathe again.

I'm not a pathetic 61 year old. I am a well paid lawyer doing an important job and paying a decent amount of tax. I am more than happy to pay more tax.

How do you envisage cancer treatment working when the hospitals are full of Covid patients? I'm not being goady here, I just want you to think through the implications of what you seem to be suggesting.

I had double dose chemo when I was battling TNBC. I ended up in A&E having caught a common cold. The risk of dying from complications arising from chemo are very high. Do you not know this already?

During the summer, I had a mammogram and a telephone appointment with my consultant. My friend also had a mammogram.

We need to protect people from the immediate danger of dying from Covid if we can. The economic fall out is very real, but we must do what we can to save people. If we give this virus the opportunity to further mutate we may be in even more serious trouble than we are already.

Keep away from it, don't let it into your house. Keep yourselves safe, keep your loved one's safe.