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London Hospital declares Major Incident.

426 replies

RubyViolet · 28/12/2020 16:55

This is frightening, and it’s not the hospital that l have heard about earlier today. This is in South London and l am hearing about a hospital in North London.
www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-london-queen-elizabeth-hospital-oxygen-b1779468.html

What happens next ?

OP posts:
RubyViolet · 28/12/2020 23:16

@ZombiePara

I'll preface this post by saying that I haven't read the full thread - I just can't bring myself to read all the deniers posts.

First off - I am in no way saying that you shouldn't call an ambulance if you have no other option. However. Broken wrist without bone poking out? Take some painkillers, self support, and get yourself to a and e. 12 hours of d and v? Self manage at home and speak to a pharmacist. Ongoing problem that hasn't resolved with multiple doctor inputs and you just feel like skipping the queue? Have a reality check and sort yourself out.

On any pre-Covid given shift, I go to people who have chronic problems, who decide that at 2am they just can't deal with it anymore, even though it is no worse than normal. I go to people who can't be bothered to try calling their doctor, and sadly I am then forced to sit there and call the same number they have, and ask to speak to their doctor.

Nowadays, we go to several covid-19 patients. Some of whom just want reassuring, or think they're positive and want a test (which we do NOT provide).
Some we go to who are really sick. Who need the oxygen. Who need hospital.

Sadly, around Christmas, we do go to "granny dumps" where people can't be bothered to deal with their relatives over the festive period, so try to get them admitted to hospital - out of sight out of mind.

On the Christmas day shift, a colleague was sat outside in the ambulance with a patient, waiting for there to be room in the hospital...just to be triaged.
While waiting, 3 people in their 30s were intubated for ventilation.
One cardiac arrest that another colleague went to? They got the patient back again, but on arrival at hospital, there were no ventilators, so they were to be made comfortable and no active treatment given.

London hospitals and ambulance services are falling over. They are unable to cope with the sheer volume of calls; this is due to an increase in the number of calls, an increase in staff off sick or isolating, and an increase in waiting time to offload at the hospitals a anywhere in the region of 4-5 hours, leaving crews only able to deal with 2-3 patients a shift.

It is worthy of being called a major incident, and as such, Ambulance Trusts around London have all (to my knowledge, certainly all of the Essex ones where I work have) given at least two vehicles per shift, to aid London.

This means we are shirt staffed in our area, London are still struggling, and people are waiting hours upon hours for vehicles; some who need us, and many who don't.

I am lucky enough to have not had to go to London yet, but no doubt on my next set of shifts (4x 12+ hour nights) I will be one of the crews that go. And I will without complaint.

We haven't provided support to London in a large scale like this in the 5 years I've been in the job; the last I know that we did was with grenfell and the terrorist attacks, but even then it was SW Essex that supported London, and the other parts of Essex supported SW.

Yes, there are always winter pressures. Yes, there are winter pressures this year.

Except this year, winter pressures are compounded by Covid-19.

It really is amazing how on the super sunny days/bank holiday people manage to look after themselves, or how when the doctors were on strike a few years ago, people managed to be self sufficient.

Think twice before you phone an ambulance, and think twice before you self present.

Thank you 🙏
OP posts:
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 28/12/2020 23:17

@PimlicoJo

I normally think there is a lot of exaggeration and drama on threads like this.

However I have a friend who works in a senior position in a hospital in London. As a medic she's often blasé about things in the media and brushes them off. She's very practical. Not this time, she says the situation is the worst she's known it and the next few weeks will be critical after Xmas mixing.

Agree. IME ED and ICU staff are pretty stoic at dealing with the shit hitting the fan, particularly in winter. If they are telling us there is a problem and it isn’t like every other winter we should probably listen.

Thank you ICUDoc and ZombiePara.

LangClegsInSpace · 28/12/2020 23:24

As a pp said, this particular hospital has significant issues even without Covid. No sensible person living nearby lets an ambulance take them there - its reputation is that bad. People insist on going to Darent Valley or Princess Royal.

I don't think this level of patient choice is generally available for emergencies is it? It wasn't for DM back in the summer when she needed an ambulance (Essex). She begged them to take her to hospital A because that's where her consultant was who knew what was happening with her rare blood cancer. She was told 'Sorry, we only take patients to hospital B now.' even though she was the same distance from both.

The upshot was that she had to explain over and over again to different doctors that she had just been given a terminal diagnosis and could they please contact her consultant at hospital A for the details. Which they didn't because apparently different hospitals don't talk to each other much any more.

RubyViolet · 28/12/2020 23:27

Let’s see what happens tomorrow, there was a meeting today, not sure if it was Cabinet/ Cobra but l would think we will be getting new guidelines very soon.
Although the cynic in me says this Government (Johnson) likes to be liked so l dare say wouldn’t change anything until New Years Day. Just to avoid negative press.

OP posts:
cbt944 · 28/12/2020 23:28

The amazing shapes people will twist themselves into to deny reality and to continue to play make-believe, preferring to trust in some fantasy being spun by some ratbag on YouTube, and/or plug their heads firmly in the sand... Fascinating for some sociological study in future years, but mind-bending and intensely frustrating to read now, and after all these months. Meanwhile...

...there are now more Covid-19 patients in hospital in England than at the peak of the first wave.

NHS England said it now had 20,426 people being treated for the virus in hospital as of 8am on Monday, surpassing April’s high of 18,946 on 12 April. Health officials in Wales and Scotland have also said they fear becoming overwhelmed.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/28/nhs-hospitals-facing-unprecedented-levels-of-coronavirus-cases

ZombiePara · 28/12/2020 23:29

@MadameBlobby
But looking at past pandemics, all the viruses hit a point where fatality/lethal-ness reduces in comparison to the time prior.
It is not in a virus's best interest to kill the host, as that then kills that particular part of virus. Almost the opposite of the animal kingdom where killing ability=food to survive.

I am in agreement that it'll be around now, like the flu is yearly, and yes deaths will occur yearly... but nowhere near the volume at the moment

ZombiePara · 28/12/2020 23:31

@LangClegsInSpace

As a pp said, this particular hospital has significant issues even without Covid. No sensible person living nearby lets an ambulance take them there - its reputation is that bad. People insist on going to Darent Valley or Princess Royal.

I don't think this level of patient choice is generally available for emergencies is it? It wasn't for DM back in the summer when she needed an ambulance (Essex). She begged them to take her to hospital A because that's where her consultant was who knew what was happening with her rare blood cancer. She was told 'Sorry, we only take patients to hospital B now.' even though she was the same distance from both.

The upshot was that she had to explain over and over again to different doctors that she had just been given a terminal diagnosis and could they please contact her consultant at hospital A for the details. Which they didn't because apparently different hospitals don't talk to each other much any more.

In my experience it very much depends on the crew, and what the patient is being taken in for.

We are restricted to what area the patient lives in, however depending on where the hospital patients are under for their specialist treatment depends if we can swing it. As you say half way... if it was me and it was relevant to why she was going in, I would argue the case unless there were severe delays at that hospital...

Motorina · 28/12/2020 23:45

@ZombiePara this is all true but there's less evolutionary pressure to become less lethal on a virus which is at it's most contagious pre-symptoms. Once it's made the leap to the next host, what happens to the first one is almost irrelevant, for the virus.

I hope that Covid will become less lethal, but it's under less pressure to do so than something like Ebola, which does not transmit until after symptoms have developed. A less lethal version of Ebola would allow the host to transmit it for longer, but covid already has a decent pre-symptomatic transmission window.

Nasty bug.

greyinganddecaying · 28/12/2020 23:51

This all terrifies me. I have health issues (though nothing immediately life threatening). My son has lung problems.
He was in NICU for months after birth and went through all the different types of breathing support: oscillation, ventilation, cpap, bipap, high flow oxygen, low flow oxygen. It was hell. The thought of going back there with him (& worse if I get ill & can't be there to advocate for him) is really upsetting.

We're doing all we can to stay in & keep away from people but who knows if that will be enough?

RubyViolet · 28/12/2020 23:57

@greyinganddecaying

This all terrifies me. I have health issues (though nothing immediately life threatening). My son has lung problems. He was in NICU for months after birth and went through all the different types of breathing support: oscillation, ventilation, cpap, bipap, high flow oxygen, low flow oxygen. It was hell. The thought of going back there with him (& worse if I get ill & can't be there to advocate for him) is really upsetting.

We're doing all we can to stay in & keep away from people but who knows if that will be enough?

Greying l hope you can stay strong and stay safe 🙏
OP posts:
MadameBlobby · 29/12/2020 00:17

[quote ZombiePara]@MadameBlobby
But looking at past pandemics, all the viruses hit a point where fatality/lethal-ness reduces in comparison to the time prior.
It is not in a virus's best interest to kill the host, as that then kills that particular part of virus. Almost the opposite of the animal kingdom where killing ability=food to survive.

I am in agreement that it'll be around now, like the flu is yearly, and yes deaths will occur yearly... but nowhere near the volume at the moment[/quote]
Oh yeah, but if there are 21k in hospital now that’s an extra few hundred beds that will need to be accounted for every year even if we reduce it by 99%? Is that not right?

perhapstomorrow · 29/12/2020 00:22

I've just seen this on Twitter. The NHS is in dire position.

twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1343652707937243137?s=19

RubyViolet · 29/12/2020 00:58

[quote perhapstomorrow]I've just seen this on Twitter. The NHS is in dire position.

twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1343652707937243137?s=19[/quote]
And some of the practisers she follows are not mincing their words either.

twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1343689339113512968

OP posts:
Defenbaker · 29/12/2020 01:14

@ZombiePara Thanks for your detailed and informative post, and thanks for all your hard work - you must be shattered.

I'm unsure how many ICU beds the UK has - is it around 30,000 now? I think at the start of the pandemic a figure of 5,100 was mentioned, but since then many wards have been converted to take Covid patients who need oxygen, and then they built the Nightingales (although I understand there is still an issue with finding enough staff to work in them). So, considering we have around 21,000 Covid patients in hospital currently, and numbers are expected to rise sharply mid January... will 30,000 ICU beds be enough? That is the key question. If not, will it be possible to set up patients with oxygen cylinders in their own homes? If not, the medics are going to have some awful decisions to make. This info needs to be made public, in the hope that it will persuade the stubborn and stupid types of the reasons why NY Eve parties are NOT a good idea.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 29/12/2020 07:30

@Lairyfightzzzz

Everyone bleats on about how the NHS can’t be privatised but something needs to be changed, and if that means some element of privatisation/insurance then that might need to happen. You just can’t keep throwing funds at an antiquated system

Actually I agree with this, though it is massively unpopular.

How will privatisation help? It certainly won’t reduce costs.
Backbee · 29/12/2020 07:51

I don't think privatisation will help, it will just cause less cohesion as it's likely different companies will want different bits (the NHS as a whole is likely something that no investor would touch with a barge poll), At the moment it doesn't make money, someone taking it on as a private venture would look to create efficiencies to help turn a profit, a lot of which are unlikely to be of benefit to users. They aren't going to do it as a charity case to squeeze more value out with no benefit for themselves. It does need a restructure though, from managing the estates portfolio, selling off unusable assets or rebuilding on the land, to better procurement practice to secure better prices for cleaning products.

scaevola · 29/12/2020 08:19

It is not in a virus's best interest to kill the host, as that then kills that particular part of virus

Unless of course the virus has already transmitted to another person - once it has found a new host, it doesn't matter if the current one dies. As SARS-COV2 is infectious before symptoms, there's no incentive to produce a milder disease.

We get a generally milder disease by vaccinating those who are likely to get it seriously and fill/overwhelm hospitals (preventing nearly all other healthcare). That means the elderly, the CEV, the CV and the older working age population. Because at the moment, the known effect of the jab is to prevent serious illness (full sterilising immunity has yet to be adequately demonstrated)

Once everyone's risk is that of the healthy younger population, then I think we shall see considerable change in restrictions

Madhairday · 29/12/2020 08:21

Thanks for that twitter thread from the doctor. I am feeling so helpless and really, really angry with the covid denying anti maskers on twitter. They put smiley faces in their profiles to brag about their stance and they just resist reality at every turn. And there's a few on this thread despite firm evidence from the ground.

I'd like to know about ICU numbers too. When people say they're no more full than usual are they just quoting a percentage and not taking into account how they've increased the capacity so much this year? Would be interesting to see the figures.

Madhairday · 29/12/2020 08:39

When you have things like this being shared it all just feels completely hopeless. It's like mass brainwashing. Someone takes video of empty hospital corridors to prove there isn't a pandemic and calls people sheep a lot. Does. Not. Have. A. Clue.

So, so offensive to those on the front line.

twitter.com/21WIRE/status/1343649378767089664?s=19

MrsMiaWallis · 29/12/2020 08:42

@Madhairday

Thanks for that twitter thread from the doctor. I am feeling so helpless and really, really angry with the covid denying anti maskers on twitter. They put smiley faces in their profiles to brag about their stance and they just resist reality at every turn. And there's a few on this thread despite firm evidence from the ground.

I'd like to know about ICU numbers too. When people say they're no more full than usual are they just quoting a percentage and not taking into account how they've increased the capacity so much this year? Would be interesting to see the figures.

Leave Twitter! Why would you put yourself through that 🤷‍♀️
jasjas1973 · 29/12/2020 08:52

But looking at past pandemics, all the viruses hit a point where fatality/lethal-ness reduces in comparison to the time prior

Only because you are looking at flu pandemics.
Smallpox wiped vast numbers of south and north american indians, Bubonic plague last for centuries, only ended when the brown rat became dominant, neither virus have become less lethal.
Measles & polio have not become less lethal either.

.

Madhairday · 29/12/2020 08:52

I'm on there for work, Mia... It's everywhere on there.

StrugglingICUnurse · 29/12/2020 09:17

@Madhairday in my small ICU we have double the number of patients than usual, we continue to take up an additional ward, we are urgently recalling any nursing staff with previous ICU experience from their roles elsewhere in the hospital. We used the summer to run a ICU school so next to be called in will be those staff with a week's training.....

starfro · 29/12/2020 09:29

Despite what is being said, excess weekly deaths in early December are 1/10 of what they were in the April peak.

The NHS will be very busy this winter. However Covid levels are still 3-4 times lower than in early April (Zoe and excess death).

London Hospital declares Major Incident.
redcandlelight · 29/12/2020 09:36

@starfro

Despite what is being said, excess weekly deaths in early December are 1/10 of what they were in the April peak.

The NHS will be very busy this winter. However Covid levels are still 3-4 times lower than in early April (Zoe and excess death).

and that is great. honestly, it's fantastic that for most covid patients treatment is working well and they are recovering.

however hospitals are still full and the nature of this illness means that patients tend to stay longer and they need a lot of help with breathing and posturing.