The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

It's not a question of maths worksheets for me. It's a question of caring appropriately for a very young child who needs constant supervision to stay safe.

@Agoodbriskwalk

Okay, and you see how I'm not typing "well they should just suck it up, it's a pandemic, most teachers are young and will only get a relatively mild case of flu, the virus doesn't care about their worries"?

That's because I'm not a total arse, and I'm aware that I can care about the tough situation teachers are in while also caring about the tough situation working parents are in, without minimising either.

Sorry you lost me at 'relatively mild case of flu'. You're one of those.

And again, nobody said anything about the tough situation working parents are in. My comment was about people whining about how tough it was having their kids at home (the same people that show absolutely no respect for the job teachers do, usually). Teachers should not have to risk long-term illness and death so that people don't have to wrestle with a maths worksheet for a week or two.

This. With bells on.

It is tricky for parents. But no teacher should have to work with zero social distancing (let's be honest, primary school especially means close to kids) no masks in an environment where the virus is spreading rapidly.

It may be hard having kids at home but at least the kids are safe and healthy. A teacher is more likely to develop long term effects or death (because children are largely unaffected) which isn't fair.

I don't want schools open for childcare. I want them open to educate my children. The only teaching and useful education my primary age daughter got last time was from my husband and I while we were also trying to work full time. There was no live teaching, no work was marked and they were just left to get on with it. The school has said it has no plans to do anything different if they shut again. Can anyone suggest how my daughter will get her education if schools shut again?

Sorry you lost me at 'relatively mild case of flu'. You're one of those.

Apparently I lost you several words before that, at the point where I said 'you see how I'm not typing'. Had you stuck around past that (very tough, I'm sure) first sentence, you'd also have got to the part where I said that I would not ever say that, because it would be minimising a difficult and complex situation.

For another example of minimising a difficult situation: you describing working parents (which is, after all, what the thread is about) as 'whining' about 'having to do a few maths worksheets'.

My partner works from home, has done since March. I went back to work in June and he has been sole childcare since.
It was tough for the first few weeks then settled down and they have a routine going. He spoke with his employer and agreed flexible working hours so will work the busy times e.g 9-12 then feed DS play directly with him for a bit. DS typically naps at about 2 so DS logs back on for a couple of hours then when I get home at about 5:30 DP will finish any outstanding work.
It doesn't always follow that pattern but it works just took a couple of weeks to get into the swing of it

[quote StatisticalSense]@Jourdain11
Nobody should be doing that, but equally there's ways to ensure nobody has to do that even with schools closed. The historical 9-5 will have to take a back seat for a while in many cases but with a bit of flexibility from both sides there are very few jobs in which a 2 parent family or 2 people in a support bubble shouldn't be able to negotiate opposite working hours (and this is where the government should be focussing) so that between them they can look after the children at all times and work their contracted hours when their partner is available.[/quote]
My DH can't do his job from home and his hours are both long and unpredictable. I can work from home but it's set hours when our phone lines are open. Neither of us can be available to look after or educate our KS1 child. I know so many couples in similar or worse situations. So no there are not 'very few jobs' where people are in this situation.

You know very well it’s not just ‘wrestling with maths worksheets for a week or two’.

A) It was months last time, and b) millions of parents were wrestling with those worksheets while also trying to work at their paid jobs. People have pointed out multiple times on this thread that working from home while supervising schoolwork simply isn’t possible.

@EssentialHummus
As I say the key is in opening up childcare bubbles to those without local family and friends by encouraging employers to encourage staff with children to bubble with each other and allowing those who do to work at different times (considering there are very few roles that are both coverage based and limited to 9-5 Monday to Friday). There is also likely to be a role in the government asking colleges and universities to offer learning at various times including evenings and weekends so that part time student workers can swap onto weekday daytimes if it is easier for their parent colleagues to get childcare at evenings or weekends.

I don't even care for my own circumstances about maths worksheets, personally. My DC are young enough that I'm not that fussed about them catching up a few months of missed education.

I do care that I cannot do my job and effectively supervise and care for my children at the same time, and yet I'm apparently expected to do this. And not even to point out that it's not possible, because that is 'whining' and somehow unsympathetic towards teachers.

@StatisticalSense I can give you an example of when ‘being flexible’ won’t cut it.

I am a primary teacher and thus in lockdown was required to work standard hours, plus the usual evenings and weekends. No flexibility there, I have to be available during ‘the historical 9-5s’ and beyond.

My partner is self employed in the construction industry and thus cannot work from home. No option of furlough for either of us. Even if we could afford full time nursery they wouldn’t even honour her usual one day a week as I was ‘at home’.

Yes I agree re flexibility, but there needs to be some kind of provision for families like this, unless we want to plunge more children into an ‘eat or pay the bills’ situation.

@Manteo
Companies need to be told in no uncertain terms that unpredictable hours are not unacceptable and reminded of the maximum working time limits in law. Like in many cases your problem is an employer that is taking the piss and rather than sort the actual problem you'd like the government to solve it for you.

I do wonder how many of the people demanding schools MUST stay open have actively campaigned their MPs to demand that schools are made safer? Did you have anything to say about the complete lack of budget for extra cleaning, no improvement in ventilation, no attempts at social distancing, teachers not being allowed to wear masks etc? If not, why not? Why did you turn a blind eye while teachers were warning you at every turn, and now you expect the schools that are on their knees to be kept open for your children?

I do care that I cannot do my job and effectively supervise and care for my children at the same time, and yet I'm apparently expected to do this.

Absolutely, but this is not really a matter to take up with teachers. It is a matter to take up with your employer, and your family unit, and of course the Government.

They need to vaccinate teachers if they want schools to stay open.

Apparently I lost you several words before that, at the point where I said 'you see how I'm not typing'. Had you stuck around past that (very tough, I'm sure) first sentence, you'd also have got to the part where I said that I would not ever say that, because it would be minimising a difficult and complex situation.

For another example of minimising a difficult situation: you describing working parents (which is, after all, what the thread is about) as 'whining' about 'having to do a few maths worksheets'.

I'm sure you think your patronising tone is terribly clever, but it's just making you look like the 'total arse' you claim not to be.

AGAIN my comment was not about the difficulties faced by all working parents. It was about not having sympathy for the ones who really are just whining about having to home educate their kids for a while, out of necessity. Don't pretend there aren't any.

@Barbie222

I do care that I cannot do my job and effectively supervise and care for my children at the same time, and yet I'm apparently expected to do this.

Absolutely, but this is not really a matter to take up with teachers. It is a matter to take up with your employer, and your family unit, and of course the Government.

I'm NOT taking it up with teachers. I have not at any point blamed teachers for causing this or expected teachers to fix it for me. Argh.

Schools should not be closed full stop. The knock on effect from closing schools again would be a catastrophe.

I really don't think we should assume that children continue to have the same immunity from severe illness with the new variants.

I'm on the side of teachers in this, but also, we need to be really careful not to make it about protecting the teachers as the only goal. Community transmission from schools is looking like it's pretty horrendous in the South East. Primary schools will be told to go online if the cases are too high in the community and children are spreading it. Also if there is a substantial increase numbers of children requiring hospitalisation.

@Agoodbriskwalk

Apparently I lost you several words before that, at the point where I said 'you see how I'm not typing'. Had you stuck around past that (very tough, I'm sure) first sentence, you'd also have got to the part where I said that I would not ever say that, because it would be minimising a difficult and complex situation.

For another example of minimising a difficult situation: you describing working parents (which is, after all, what the thread is about) as 'whining' about 'having to do a few maths worksheets'.

I'm sure you think your patronising tone is terribly clever, but it's just making you look like the 'total arse' you claim not to be.

AGAIN my comment was not about the difficulties faced by all working parents. It was about not having sympathy for the ones who really are just whining about having to home educate their kids for a while, out of necessity. Don't pretend there aren't any.

AGAIN my comment was not about the difficulties faced by all working parents. It was about not having sympathy for the ones who really are just whining about having to home educate their kids for a while, out of necessity.

Ah. You didn't express that very clearly in your earlier posts - you said, in fact, that you "don't really have any sympathy for the 'having the kids at home was so tough on me' people.

Forgive me for assuming that was targeted in general at the people saying having the kids at home was very tough on them.

@Timeturnerplease
I don't think that teachers should be required to keep to traditional 9-3 hours as I don't believe live online teaching is the way forward and that teachers shouldn't be involved with any in person childcare. One of the most important elements of flexibility is in acknowledging that several hours of scheduled learning is not going to be possible for many families and therefore a mix of pre-recorded videos and worksheets supported by the ability to email teachers is likely to be a better system.

[quote StatisticalSense]@Manteo
Companies need to be told in no uncertain terms that unpredictable hours are not unacceptable and reminded of the maximum working time limits in law. Like in many cases your problem is an employer that is taking the piss and rather than sort the actual problem you'd like the government to solve it for you.[/quote]
His hours are partly unpredictable as he has to drive a large, slow vehicle long distances, do a job when he gets there, then drive it back. It's not his employer dictating the hours it's just the nature of the job. You seem to think everyone does jobs where they can just catch up on their laptop at any time if the day or night which is not the case.

There are a few issues with expecting parents to work opposite shifts as you suggest StatisticalSense. It isn't possible in many jobs (if you're on a conference call with twenty other people in other organisations, how do you get them all to agree to move it to 3am?). Even where it is, you end up running out of hours because working a night shift then caring for children during the day does not leave a lot of time for sleep.

@Agoodbriskwalk

Apparently I lost you several words before that, at the point where I said 'you see how I'm not typing'. Had you stuck around past that (very tough, I'm sure) first sentence, you'd also have got to the part where I said that I would not ever say that, because it would be minimising a difficult and complex situation.

For another example of minimising a difficult situation: you describing working parents (which is, after all, what the thread is about) as 'whining' about 'having to do a few maths worksheets'.

I'm sure you think your patronising tone is terribly clever, but it's just making you look like the 'total arse' you claim not to be.

AGAIN my comment was not about the difficulties faced by all working parents. It was about not having sympathy for the ones who really are just whining about having to home educate their kids for a while, out of necessity. Don't pretend there aren't any.

But the parents on this thread and have all said they can't supervise/educate their young children whilst doing their job from home. So it was an odd thing to say on this thread if it was aimed at people in a completely different situation.

As I say the key is in opening up childcare bubbles to those without local family and friends by encouraging employers to encourage staff with children to bubble with each other and allowing those who do to work at different times

How does this work in practice? We (parents of a three yo) have a childcare bubble with some longstanding friends, who have a three year old and a baby. It sort of works, though even this very good friend is clearly a bit stressed about handing me her young BF’d baby. But encouraging random members of staff to bubble up if they’re based miles from each other, with kids of very different ages who’ve never met the adults before? And would you leave your, say, 1 year old for multiple hours with a colleague you don’t know very well, whose child is potentially a decade older?

I am a TA who got the you must isolate call on the 1st day of the holidays. Myself, my lovely teacher and my whole class have supposed to have been isolating over the whole of Xmas, we are released tomorrow.
I have missed Xmas with my adult children and now missed the opportunity to share in a never to be repeated family event.
I have sucked it up although I admit to shedding lots of tears.
The children tell us everything they do including all the sleepovers and parties that happened before Xmas. I am really going to struggle if they tell me what they did over Xmas and their families haven't stuck to the isolation.
When we say we don't feel safe, it isn't just because of how schools have to work without a 2m safety gap. My headteacher has worked flat out to try to keep us safe.
We aren't going to be safe in schools unless everyone attending schools is following the rules all of the time. I want to stay open, I understand it is difficult, I was a single working parent.
Is staying open worth the cost of even one staff member's life? I don't think so. We are so much more prepared than in March to take teaching online.
I do think that a decision needs to be made quickly to give parents as much notice as possible. It would be horrific for everyone if it comes at 8pm on Sunday the 3rd .