To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

My DD and her partner have done everything possible to shield me (cev) for nearly a year. Would you like to explain to her why it's better for her that I die than for an economy to be rebuilt?

I'm not that keen on people who think business trumps life

And not many vaccines are nearly ready or cheap and deployable.

Yes, nearly ready... Moderna is being shipped currently.

A lot of them are nearly ready, cheap, and deployable. Some have unfortunately fallen through. I'm sure the Oxford vaccine will be very good, but please don't imagine it's the only one of its kind.

edition.cnn.com/2020/11/24/health/covid-vaccines-design-explained/index.html

Moderna yes great. When have I said one of a kind Why talk down Oxford so much?

Anyway I’m over this anti U.K. exceptionalism so will leave it there as finding it too irritating these days.

@user1471453601

My DD and her partner have done everything possible to shield me (cev) for nearly a year. Would you like to explain to her why it's better for her that I die than for an economy to be rebuilt?

I'm not that keen on people who think business trumps life

It doesn't trump it but it pays for healthcare, welfare etc. The nhs doesn't pay for itself.

Because your responses are so deflective and full of denial. No, the UK could not possibly be a laughing stock/horror story for others. Oh... Well, so what. At least we help others. Come again? The Oxford vaccine. As if no other vaccines exist. Almost ready. We are saving the world! I point out Moderna (from the shit show that is the United States currently) is rolling out. Blah blah. I'll leave the thread to get back to how lockdown is pointless and let the virus rip, etc.

Not denial no. Just not naval gazing belief that all eyes are on our plight.

And I am truly sick and tired of the ads "save the granma" when 60% of the dead in Spain are people who were living in nursing homes, we are talking about people who are unable to live independently with a very very low quality of life. And 90% of all deaths are people over 70. And the number of total deaths in Spain in 2020 is much lower than in 2019 or any previous year (check the official date on the link of the governmental health agency: https://www.mscbs.gob.es/estadEstudios/estadisticas/docs/indNacDefunciones/2020Defuncioness_10.pdf
This is the reason some people will not be able to buy food for their children this Christmas, or any present, because in this country there are hundreds of thousands of people who have been furloughed for months but havent received a penny yet due to some misterious "administrative error" (the furlough in Spain should be paid directly by the state) while the business they work at has been closed for months, being allowed to open for a couple of weeks now and then just to make it even more impossible to claim anything, because the administration is slow... This is all absurd, the crime levels will skyrocket and the worst part of this shit storm is yet to come and a few thousand deaths over almost a year, of people who were at the end of their life anyway is going to look such a small sacrifice in comparison

I wish the ghouls would stop disregarding the elderly and the vulnerable.

We could do with a Dickens to write about the lack of humanity in this pandemic.

All the people who are so worried about socially vulnerable children not in education. They are so often the people who voted for austerity, for cuts to social services and cuts to education.

Could you all take a long hard look in the mirror this Christmas and think about the consequences of your choices.

And that is without the shitshow that is Brexit, God help us.

Ghouls.

We could do with a Dickens to write about the lack of humanity in this pandemic.

We could and most of it's nothing to do with elderly people dying.

All the people who are so worried about socially vulnerable children not in education. They are so often the people who voted for austerity, for cuts to social services and cuts to education.

Yes, they're usually also the people who don't want any extra funding for schools to allow for better mitigation that 9 times out of 10 would also deliver better education.

I agree OP. We should have been building the NHS up. I don’t understand why we are vaccinating the over 80s. We need to isolate and protect them but let’s vaccinate care workers, teachers etc first.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

We could do with a Dickens to write about the lack of humanity in this pandemic.

We could and most of it's nothing to do with elderly people dying.

It is to do with people prioritising money over people's lives in a misguided belief that if they pretend there isn't a problem everything would just ping back to normal.

It's sad really.

Regarding the OP, I agree with some of it- expanding health would be great, and it seems such a great shame that people are being paid not to work when we are in dire need of hands on deck in education and health, but I can also see that it is very difficult to redirect people and resources. Even harder when the leadership itself is very uninspiring - and they don't seem all that interested in investing in education and health per se.

As regards everyone getting on with things and leaving the vulnerable to shield, only the bonkers fringe think this is a goer in the medical world. It would be very difficult to create a 2 tier society like that in reality.

My gosh there are a lot of British people who truly hate the British and positively delight in talking themselves down at any opportunity they get ... happens in each and every debate, especially political, so nothing new I suppose. Do people realise that there aren’t two options or two ‘sides’ though? It’s not money vs people or ‘let it run rip through society’ vs ‘total police state’. It is a systemic and far more complex issue than that.

In fifty years time I suspect this will be remembered as the Great COVID Derangement. They’ll probably study it in schools: how politicians and people were gripped by a death spiral of irrational group think.

I actually think the emotions involved are very similar to religious fanaticism. Fear, hope of salvation by following sacred rules, hatred of non conformity, hatred of those who deny or question the sacred rules, outward signs of compliance and allegiance (crucifixes, masks), devoted respect for an elite caste of sacred lawgivers (priests, SAGE).

It appeals to something very primitive in human nature & gives meaning (through hatred of dissenters and fear and rule following) to people whose lives perhaps have been lacking in meaning until now.

Also strong resemblances to Fascism - the importance of the group, no divergence of opinion allowed, strong social enforcement of norms, hysterical praise of sacred caste (the NHS clapping!).

Religion played a useful social role in many ways. Without it humans are prone to grasp at substitutes - I think this is one. It’s a psychological phenomenon.

Ironically, given the recent mutations, it rather looks as though we would have been better off protecting the vulnerable and letting the healthy build up natural immunity, by exposure, 9 months ago...the Great Derangement may have brought about the worst possible outcome. A mutated virus to which the population, masked and carefully locked away, has had no opportunity to build up immunity.

@TheGreatSloth

In fifty years time I suspect this will be remembered as the Great COVID Derangement. They’ll probably study it in schools: how politicians and people were gripped by a death spiral of irrational group think.

I actually think the emotions involved are very similar to religious fanaticism. Fear, hope of salvation by following sacred rules, hatred of non conformity, hatred of those who deny or question the sacred rules, outward signs of compliance and allegiance (crucifixes, masks), devoted respect for an elite caste of sacred lawgivers (priests, SAGE).

It appeals to something very primitive in human nature & gives meaning (through hatred of dissenters and fear and rule following) to people whose lives perhaps have been lacking in meaning until now.

Also strong resemblances to Fascism - the importance of the group, no divergence of opinion allowed, strong social enforcement of norms, hysterical praise of sacred caste (the NHS clapping!).

Religion played a useful social role in many ways. Without it humans are prone to grasp at substitutes - I think this is one. It’s a psychological phenomenon.

Ironically, given the recent mutations, it rather looks as though we would have been better off protecting the vulnerable and letting the healthy build up natural immunity, by exposure, 9 months ago...the Great Derangement may have brought about the worst possible outcome. A mutated virus to which the population, masked and carefully locked away, has had no opportunity to build up immunity.

Not sure who you are criticising here.

Are you trying to say you don't agree with science-based advice around infection control?

The natural immunity idea isn't a goer, sorry. We need a vaccine for herd immunity. And immunity appears to be short lived with this virus, so we most likely need repeated doses.

@UsernameAB14

I completely agree with you OP. It's a relief to know other's on here think this. When I try to tell people about the importance of our liberties and freedoms, the way people's mental health is suffering from all this, the economic effect, the government debt, education etc. They reply with you don't have the right to spread the virus or greedy capitalist only thinking about money. Its maddening people have gone insane other this.

We should have a police state and then we might respect the rules of lockdown. Everyone in isolation should wear tags which are applied and then released by the police. responses like this terrify me more than any virus. I don't want to live in a police state.

Me too

@UsernameAB14

I completely agree with you OP. It's a relief to know other's on here think this. When I try to tell people about the importance of our liberties and freedoms, the way people's mental health is suffering from all this, the economic effect, the government debt, education etc. They reply with you don't have the right to spread the virus or greedy capitalist only thinking about money. Its maddening people have gone insane other this.

We should have a police state and then we might respect the rules of lockdown. Everyone in isolation should wear tags which are applied and then released by the police. responses like this terrify me more than any virus. I don't want to live in a police state.

And I didn't see anyone wishing for less liberty in the UK before this all kicked off.

I don’t understand why we are vaccinating the over 80s. We need to isolate and protect them but let’s vaccinate care workers, teachers etc first.

Gosh, I've become so tired and bored by the whole thing - I've given up reading and questioning much anymore. But this makes so much sense.

Wait till it comes to paying for it all. It will all be the fault of "benefit scroungers" again.

@Elephant4

I don’t understand why we are vaccinating the over 80s. We need to isolate and protect them but let’s vaccinate care workers, teachers etc first.

Gosh, I've become so tired and bored by the whole thing - I've given up reading and questioning much anymore. But this makes so much sense.

I don't understand why DNR orders (which I partially see the logic in in some cases) and the Liverpool Pathway are routinely used for even over 70s, yet there is such a focus on vaccinating over 80s.

I mean, I realise the average age of death for Covid is around 82 years, but I can't understand the difference in approach to over 80s when someone has another disease, as opposed to Covid.

@Cornettoninja

Thing is *@ForestNymph* we already do change our behaviour for other medical conditions. We isolate ourselves if we get chicken pox or norovirus or even nits till they’re treated, we ban nuts in spaces where there are known nut allergies, we make spaces for people with disabilities to travel and access toilets, we warn people of flashing lights in case of epilepsy; this is on a larger scale and causes more disruption but these are all things we do with barely thinking about it because it benefits wider society.

If you fundamentally see the sense and agree with any of those examples then I don’t see how you can dismiss the restrictions needed when it’s needed on a wider scale.

There’s a huge difference between not serving peanuts on a flight or blocking off the parking spots closest to the Tesco front door for disabled people and forcing millions of people into poverty, loss of education, loss of prospects, and the general totalitarian approach that this has taken. I can live without peanuts. I can walk a few extra feet to get to the supermarket door. But have you tried paying a mortgage with no money? Have you tried to feed a family on UC?

@TheGreatSloth

In fifty years time I suspect this will be remembered as the Great COVID Derangement. They’ll probably study it in schools: how politicians and people were gripped by a death spiral of irrational group think.

I actually think the emotions involved are very similar to religious fanaticism. Fear, hope of salvation by following sacred rules, hatred of non conformity, hatred of those who deny or question the sacred rules, outward signs of compliance and allegiance (crucifixes, masks), devoted respect for an elite caste of sacred lawgivers (priests, SAGE).

It appeals to something very primitive in human nature & gives meaning (through hatred of dissenters and fear and rule following) to people whose lives perhaps have been lacking in meaning until now.

Also strong resemblances to Fascism - the importance of the group, no divergence of opinion allowed, strong social enforcement of norms, hysterical praise of sacred caste (the NHS clapping!).

Religion played a useful social role in many ways. Without it humans are prone to grasp at substitutes - I think this is one. It’s a psychological phenomenon.

Ironically, given the recent mutations, it rather looks as though we would have been better off protecting the vulnerable and letting the healthy build up natural immunity, by exposure, 9 months ago...the Great Derangement may have brought about the worst possible outcome. A mutated virus to which the population, masked and carefully locked away, has had no opportunity to build up immunity.

So true. Thank you for explaining this so well. During these 8.5 months I've often felt like I'm in some crazy kafkian dream, where the government suddenly has the power to tell us how many people we'll have for dinner in our own house and the people are actually obeying and consulting tv in order to make the decision, without assesing the situation themselves! This thread is such a breath of fresh air!

“ In fifty years time I suspect this will be remembered as the Great COVID Derangement. They’ll probably study it in schools: how politicians and people were gripped by a death spiral of irrational group think.”

I hope so. But history is already being rewritten. Look at the WHO changing their definition of herd immunity.