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Covid

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To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

999 replies

PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 22/12/2020 08:35

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

OP posts:
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Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/12/2020 17:21

Superb post, scubadive

MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2020 17:23

Our relative unhealthiness is an issue I agree.

herecomestheSon · 23/12/2020 17:27

@Cornettoninja

In theory I agree with you *@Xenia* but there are a lot of persuasive people out there who are regurgitating some really damaging false information. You don’t know who’s reading this and what they do with the information.

I don’t know what you have/haven’t seen but Avoter posted some absolute bullshit playing on peoples fears for their children. People are already alarmed, something like that could tip someone over the edge. If it was based on reality then that would be one thing but it’s not.

As an aside I think you have some pretty damaging dangerous views yourself but at least you don’t hide the fact they’re your opinion not fact.

was that the ONS figures of 2.5k out of 100k secondary schoolkids positive?

that is a fact?

herecomestheSon · 23/12/2020 17:29

given we have a vaccine we need to

a) roll it out as soon as possible
b) be really careful till then

is this not common sense? even for people with a faltering understanding of science and stats?

Thunderpunt · 23/12/2020 17:34

@Hrpuffnstuff1

We've had masks, lockdowns, distancing etc, for all of 9 months now, and they've done nothing. The virus transmits like all respiratory illnesses, on surfaces, in the air. You cant stop it. It's inevitable.

This pandemic has been in the making for a long time, modern medicine, extending the life span, poor food choices , lack of exercise. And boom the population is partially disabled, and quite frankly un bloody healthy. We are the sick man of Europe. Most of this is self inflicted, 75% of Britons are either obese of overweight, or way past the 3 score and 10.

So much so, that people are unable to give themselves basic care like going to the toilet or feed themselves. Some people don't even know who they are. This is in fact a recent phenomena, previously people died earlier, and not in the decrepit state we have now.
I think in the future we need to look at palliative care rather pumping people full of drugs to keep them alive, along with extending the care from families via the use of carers. It's been a costly mistake in the end. We wouldn't treat an animal like this so why the obsession from the public and medical science on extending life at any cost. Including complete decimation of the wealth, health, education, and society underneath.
And we have the gall to compare ourselves to other nations, Jesus wept, we have an epidemic of unhealthy people, especially, comparatively to the Far East, our mental and physical health strategy is in dire need of serious introspective public discourse. It's a mess, a costly mess created by a lack of accountability on a personal and governmental level.

Add that to the fact the general person on the street has no resilience whatsoever, just people complaining and crying with hysteria every where. Certainly on social media...............

Economically, the boomer generation, generally those making the most noise are also sitting on 5.5 tn worth of assets thanks in the main to the 10-15% compound interest gained over the lifetime of owning properties. Demanding the sacrifice of those born and those not born is a clear case of selfish interest before everyone else. It's appalling.

This pandemic is an example of the swiss cheese effect, a perfect storm of circumstances all combining to present an ethical dilemma, the Trolley dilemma. Who do we save?
This over reactive scorched earth policy is reeking havoc amongst society, I know we don't wish to see death, however for a 100% of all people it is inevitable. It's an uncomfortable truth.

Facts based on uncomplete data are often thrown around to be used as evidence to support an argument.
What's interesting is, the Inacrc data does not tie in the government message, according to witty and co we were going to be overwhelmed in September. It never happened did it..
The only one true fact is we all die sooner or later, but at what consequence to everyone else.

I agree with all of this

And as a complete aside and not relevant at all to the thread.... I wonder @Hrpuffnstuff1 if you are named after your first pony? My pony was stabled next to a Puff...... many moons ago Grin

hamstersarse · 23/12/2020 17:40

Well said @Hrpuffnstuff1

Cornettoninja · 23/12/2020 18:29

I didn’t see a post that said that but I may have missed it @herecomestheSon. The poster started off with links and statements about children being forcibly vaccinated without parental consent.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/12/2020 18:46

Interestingly, Radio 4 news just reported a suggestion that the available vaccines be used to give more people the initial jab, rather than holding some back for the second doses

My understanding was that it didn't become fully effective until the treatment's completed, but right on cue they seem to have found a tame expert (David Salisbury, ex chief of immunisation at the DoH) to say it may make little difference

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55410349

Vargas · 23/12/2020 18:54

I think it's pretty common for vaccines (like MMR and chicken pox) to be very effective with first dose (90%+), and then the booster is really just to increase that to 95%+.

Kjc39 · 23/12/2020 18:59

A lockdown like March will never work again as people are not as scared anymore. They stayed home out of fear. That won’t happen again.

IloveJKRowling · 23/12/2020 19:01

The OP says you can't stop it but plenty of countries have.

Plenty of countries have kept the level of cases low and economic damage minimal (because the two are directly linked). South Korea is one example, there are many more.

We've performed just about the worst of all developed countries in terms of deaths and damage to the economy.

It really didn't have to be this way and plenty of other places have done so much better. But really good testing, good and fast contact tracing, and masks everywhere (not the half arsed UK version) are some of the key things that have helped keep cases low elsewhere.

You really don't have to look very far to see countries that have done better - sometimes 100x better in terms of death rates - many of whom got the virus before us, we could have learned from them if we wanted to. We still could.

Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum · 23/12/2020 19:05

@Kjc39

A lockdown like March will never work again as people are not as scared anymore. They stayed home out of fear. That won’t happen again.
Yep

Unless all this new talk of mutations freak people out enough but I think a lot of people too suspicious of everything now.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 23/12/2020 19:06

Hrpuffnstuff is children's TV program back in the late 60's with witchiepoo cackling away. Giving children nightmares.
Especially myself.

It's interesting to note the latest inarc audit shows the demographic suffering the most from this virus hasn't changed much.
To answer another post mentioning businesses have done well. Current fiscal analysis from PWC, OBR, all show we are technically in a recession borderline depression. Economic cycles usually last 10yrs.
So unless we have more inclusive government actions rather than focusing on public health we're in for a distinctly different age from what we've been used to.
Personally my business has lost 50 percent of revenues. The company my girlfriend works for has lost 30 percent of revenues. She's lost 10 percent of her income due to cuts in her salary and bonus structure......

Depending on where people are on the wheel of life, will influence viewpoints.
I do have some aggrement with attempting not to overwhelm the NHS, however data would suggest capacity has regional variations. And what the hell are we doing with the nightingales.
The issue is Sage and the Government have invested far too much in poor strategies/policies and are now stuck in no man's land.....
They're not actually benefitting anyone.

As for lockdown part 1 Sage notes show the virus spread falling pre lockdown. Make of that what you will.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/12/2020 19:06

I think it's pretty common for vaccines (like MMR and chicken pox) to be very effective with first dose (90%+), and then the booster is really just to increase that to 95%+

Yes, that more or less what this David Salisbury reportedly said ... but previously there was a lot of noise about how vital it was to attend the second appointment in order to be protected

So given the incoherence of the messaging I'm left wondering which is true

MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2020 19:07

The trouble is a hell of a lot away can be taken away so we have to change. Unfortunately!

Sure private mixing is harder to control but we’ll still have very little

MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2020 19:07

That was to the complying issue

Vargas · 23/12/2020 19:11

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I think it's pretty common for vaccines (like MMR and chicken pox) to be very effective with first dose (90%+), and then the booster is really just to increase that to 95%+

Yes, that more or less what this David Salisbury reportedly said ... but previously there was a lot of noise about how vital it was to attend the second appointment in order to be protected

So given the incoherence of the messaging I'm left wondering which is true

This government could win a gold medal for incoherent messaging!
Bollss · 23/12/2020 19:11

@MarshaBradyo

The trouble is a hell of a lot away can be taken away so we have to change. Unfortunately!

Sure private mixing is harder to control but we’ll still have very little

I think private mixing is the main thing people want. And realistically they can't police it.
MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2020 19:12

I don’t know Trust I can’t speak for others but I want the other stuff!

MarshaBradyo · 23/12/2020 19:14

This reduced suppressed life is so bad!

I’ll meet friends outside if I can get some other stuff

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/12/2020 19:17

On the subject of compliance and government narrative, can I just remind folk of SAGE's thoughts on this as reported back in spring:

Perceived threat: A substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened ... the perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging

Bollss · 23/12/2020 19:17

@MarshaBradyo

I don’t know Trust I can’t speak for others but I want the other stuff!
Me too but I want to see people the most. I still want all the normal things Grin
southeastdweller · 23/12/2020 19:24

@Puzzledandpissedoff

On the subject of compliance and government narrative, can I just remind folk of SAGE's thoughts on this as reported back in spring:

Perceived threat: A substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened ... the perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging

That's why it's pointless people here whining about having another lockdown or a 'proper' one, because the government know the public increasingly don't give too many fucks about the virus.
PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 23/12/2020 20:19

@IloveJKRowling That is kind of what I said in my OP though. The suppression strategy might work for saving the economy and lives. The repeated lockdown strategy doesn't.

I believe that it is far too late for a suppression strategy to work in the UK. In any case it doesn't seem to have worked in any country in Europe and those are the countries most similar to us.

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