To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

Agree 100% with the OP and with @Chessie678. You express the madness perfectly.

I assume @Frankly321 cannot be serious. What a vision of hell.

I’ve not read all the comments (there are a lot)! But am getting fed up in this debate and others (eg brexit) of people dismissing anyone questioning things or putting forward alternative views as ‘idiots’ lacking ‘common sense’ etc. Surely, as with most complex and systemic issues there are valid points made on either ‘side’ - that’s the whole point. It’s a very complex and multifaceted issue that is based on predictions into the future and NO ONE has all the answers. It is not simple, black and white, lockdown everything vs do nothing. There are so many shades of grey and infinite ways we could do things. It is not simple. We will never ‘know’ because no one can be sure how a different course of action might have changed the outcome. And the outcome will differ for different people. Some will win and some will lose. I might care about my vulnerable child or parent who is highly susceptible to the virus. You might be struggling to put food on the table and pay the mortgage, unable to work and suffering with mental health etc. There are simply no easy answers but we MUST be able to debate without dismissing the other side as ‘idiocy’ it simply is not and everyone on here has valid points based on their own personal context and what they see as most important.

Also you just cannot compare the UK to any other country because the geography and way of living here is always going to be different, comparing the UK and Sweden or Australia or wherever is NOT comparing like for like.

@Chessie678 the polls suggest the majority of people do support lockdown.yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/12/20/strong-support-tier-4-introduction-and-christmas-r
A snap YouGov poll has found that three quarters (74%) support the creation of Tier 4, including 48% who say they “strongly support” it. Only 17% are opposed.

This shows that lockdown has democratic and wide-ranging support across conservative voters, labour voters, londoners and the rest of the country. I should not support it- I am a healthy 28 year old londoner who lives in a flat and whose wedding she delayed for over 5 years (as she was saving for her housing deposit) is delayed indefinitely because of Covid. I am working and am aware that taxes would be raised significantly in future to pay for this. I know that I would probably be part of a lost generation of young adults (but would be less affected than the children and teenagers of today). But I do and its because like the rest of the country, I know there isn't a choice.

OP I agree with you 100% -shame there is no voting function on here!

@vickyp0llard

If the virus was allowed to just do its thing most employers/staff would probably be dead

With a 0.4-0.6% IFR? Hyperbolic much.

The IFR varies with age and vulnerability. So it’s not 0.4-0.6% for everyone.

@eeeyulesmiles

As a result of this pandemic, the average human being on this planet is unavoidably going to be poorer, less healthy, more mentally stressed and less well educated than we would have been without the pandemic. There's no way round that.

What will vary is how those harms are distributed and their size. Some people will barely be affected by some of those categories of harm. Some people will be less healthy because hospitals couldn't (not wouldn't!) give cancer treatment, some from covid itself. Some people are financially cushioned, others aren't. It's still all due to the virus.

I understand where the OP is coming from but I don't think we've got much choice right now but to try to suppress the virus because the alternative really is worse. Letting the amount of virus in circulation go up, even if most people don't die, is just not a viable alternative. The hospitalisation rate is too high.

Agreed about a lot of this - but I think this is not down to the virus per se, but from the ill thought out measures bought in to control it.

I'm not saying we do nothing, but I think long term societal hysteria about a virus with an IFR of 0.4 - 0.6% will.

@vickyp0llard You are right, its a democracy and the majority of people support tier 4 (which is in effect lockdown). The governemnt isn't forcing the majority of people to obey laws they don't agree with. And there have been other issues i.e. Brexit which have less popular support and the government is going through with that. 74% of people supporting a policy- that is a shoo-in.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/12/20/strong-support-tier-4-introduction-and-christmas-r
A snap YouGov poll has found that three quarters (74%) support the creation of Tier 4, including 48% who say they “strongly support” it. Only 17% are opposed.

Yes the IFR is a lot lower for the young and a lot higher as you age - plus factors such as sex, weight, co-morbidities etc.

That is an averaged out IFR over the whole population.

@hopingforonlychild I always wonder who they poll in these polls; I don't know anyone who supports creating a Tier 4, nor anyone who's ever been polled.

Wonder how many of those supporting Tier 4 are basing their decision on Facebook posts and scaremongering from MSM?

We cannot put our children at risk of long COVID.

But putting children at risk of starvation, food banks, domestic violence, homelessness, lack of education, lack of dentistry, loss of socialisation and lack of future job opportunities is absolutely fine!

@vickyp0llard I do YouGov polls - they never reflect my views though and often wonder how I’m so out of step with everyone else 😀

@vickyp0llard I hardly know anyone who supports Brexit either as a londoner, but apparently 52% of the population voted for it (and we are going through with it). We can't use our social circles as a measure of what the country supports.

Most people I know support stricter measures. i know people who haven't been anywhere but parks and the supermarket since march and view going anywhere other than those places as irresponsible even when lockdown was lifted.

[quote Frankly321]@Flyonawalk

Hell is losing a loved one or seeing them permanently disabled by long COVID.

It is certainly not the 'restrictions' here which have been like a holiday camp.

We need a total lockdown now until Easter to save lives. No one leaves home unless a key worker.

Life has changed permanently- a vaccine will not bring back concerts or family gatherings.

We cannot put our children at risk of long COVID.[/quote]
How about losing a loved one to suicide because of lockdown?

Does that not count because "It's not infectious?"

Should we start shooting people too? Rolling tanks down the M1 and shooting defectors from London?

I don't really trust these polls; the views of people I know (from many walks of life) are completely out of line with them. Any amount of government employees or people with multiple accounts could be answering them. Look at Brexit - I seem to remember all the polls showing remain was going to win, yet here we are.

Yes but they must have mixed with other adults, family members?

They mixed with me and DH but not with others really. Certainly they wouldn't have mixed with anyone else when they were ill.

But acquired immunity is a pretty mainstream theory no?

They were acquiring immunity but don't need to mix with lots of people to do that . There is plenty of bacteria etc in the environment after all.

i know people who haven't been anywhere but parks and the supermarket since march and view going anywhere other than those places as irresponsible even when lockdown was lifted.

I don't know anyone like that. The people I know aren't anti-lockdown as such, but just living life as normally as they can within the rules, with a few breaking the odd one in a small way. I know a few who have gone a bit crazy with sanitising/staying in but definitely a minority. Everyone's fuming about Tier 4 and having to cancel xmas plans. Although they are all remainers.

@vintagevixen
Does that not count because "It's not infectious?"

I've said this from day 1 when talking about families being plunged into poverty through lockdown. That no one gives a shit about them because you can't cough 'poor' onto someone.

[quote vickyp0llard]@hopingforonlychild I always wonder who they poll in these polls; I don't know anyone who supports creating a Tier 4, nor anyone who's ever been polled.[/quote]
I don't know anyone who doesn't support it for a short while i.e. until more people have had a vaccine.

@Frankly321

It is disappointing that people are still spouting this nonsense.

Without a lockdown, we would have had 600,000 deaths and millions permanently disabled due to long COVID.

We have never had a proper lockdown in the U.K. Personally I would implement a tough stay at hike requirement until April 1st- no one leaves home at all unless they are a key worker who cannot work from home.

People should not be going out for walks or to Ikea. The army should be brought in to deliver food rations so that supermarkets can close.

I also like the idea of the French system where people must carry a certificate at all times stating why they are out.

Neighbours should be empowered to report non key workers seen leaving hoke to the army. I'd like to see tanks and soldiers patrolling- £5000 fine and straight to jail for those caught outside.

There will be tens of thousands of deaths if we do not lockdown properly now until Easter.

This is a wind-up, right? Or you’re insane?

@vickyp0llard i fumed about cancelling my plans too but i agree with the principle. everyone would be put out at cancelling plans and the way the government handled christmas but that doesn't mean they disagree with lockdown. I would meet my family on the 25th if it was allowed but it isn't as I live in London and i respect that our chief medical officer says that this is what we must do to keep the infection rate down.

@Frankly321 you have lost the plot and need mental help.

[quote LivinLaVidaLoki]@vintagevixen
Does that not count because "It's not infectious?"

I've said this from day 1 when talking about families being plunged into poverty through lockdown. That no one gives a shit about them because you can't cough 'poor' onto someone.[/quote]
Think you're right - strict lockdown is a middle class privilege in many ways, and I say that as a middle class twit myself.

Repeated lockdowns make the poor poorer.