To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

[quote hopingforonlychild]@MarshaBradyo we would be a pariah if we knew there was a mutated strain that spreads twice as fast and don't lockdown to control infection rate. It's the right decision to lockdown albeit too late. I hate lockdown, i am a city girl but there isn't a choice.[/quote]
Where's the scientific proof that it spreads twice as fast? Even Boris only said 70% faster, and he hasn't released any evidence for wider scientific scrutiny yet.

Plus, as said above, it's already out of the country and has been around since September.

Unless you’re suggesting we can eradicate new strain? But a) it’s already in other countries
B) that’s not going to happen

It’s not really the point is it?

Nevertheless it's the point I was querying
I see vicky's just posted some of the thoughts I was about to, but even Imperial reckon there were about 9000 non Covid deaths which wouldn't otherwise have happened - and if Imperial of all people say this we can be pretty sure it's a hell of a lot more, especially as that number only reflected the position up to June

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/198444/report-estimates-9000-non-covid-excess-deaths/

@MarshaBradyo the infection rate is too high for us not to since the mutated strain means it spreads twice as fast. To not lockdown would be irresponsible. When other countries see the numbers, they would rightfully want to protect their own citizens.

@EmptyOrchestra
Not all of those additional deaths were listed as COVID, but what else do you think is responsible for this if these people didn’t have COVID?

Wasn't it discovered that a lot of people were dying at home due to heart attacks, strokes etc because they were too afraid to go to hospital? It had been painted that you would either get covid and die or that it was so overwhelmed you weren't welcome, so people just weren't going. It's why Powys kept coming onto the briefings to reiterate the "NHS is still open for business"

Actually it may have been powys who said the above re people dying at home at one of these briefings.

[quote hopingforonlychild]@MarshaBradyo the infection rate is too high for us not to since the mutated strain means it spreads twice as fast. To not lockdown would be irresponsible. When other countries see the numbers, they would rightfully want to protect their own citizens.[/quote]
That’s different to making us a pariah. We have not done anything incorrectly that would make us so.

Whether it is irresponsible now I suggest it’s a balance of harm. And we are loading up the other side pretty high right now.

The effects of lockdown, cancelled operations/screenings and all the people too terrified to go to A&E with urgent conditions?

You honestly think that enormous spike which started before the first lockdown was implemented was mainly a result of those things?

Frankly, this new strain sounds to me like an excuse for Boris to cover up how bad Brexit is going to be. We already have carnage at Dover and beyond.

This. The disaster that is Brexit will be blamed on Covid. How convenient.

I can't believe that the majority of people can look at the situation we are in and still think that more lockdown is a good idea.

This year we have inflicted incredible cruelty on millions of people and deprived everyone of what would usually be considered the most basic rights.

We have prevented children receiving an education; left millions of people in solitary confinement for months (and remember that support bubbles were not introduced straight away), made people die alone, prevented close family from attending funerals, prevented people from getting married, criminalised people seeing their family in many cases for almost a year, locked women and children who are being abused in with their abusers, imprisoned students who have just left home in their rooms, removed access to basic medical care and dentistry and not least completely destroyed our economy and many people's livelihoods and futures leaving many in poverty now and in the future and still 70,000 people are dead.

I had a baby in the first week of lockdown and was expected to manage with basically zero support from midwives and health visitors and also banned from seeing friends or family for months. I'm very aware that many people were in a much worse position than me. I can't imagine how single parents or people with children in NICU coped.

Lockdown seems to be seen as a risk free option whereas it is considered certain that not locking down will overwhelm the NHS and lead to bodies piling up in the streets. But lockdown causes massive damage and comes with huge risks for the future of the country. We don't actually know whether we would be in a worse or better position with regards to covid now if we had put in place some relatively minor mitigation methods on day 1 without fully locking down. Countries which didn't lockdown are not in a great position re covid for the most part but I'm not sure they're in much worse a position either.

We seem to have reached a mentality where literally anything is justified in order to try to control covid even if there is no evidence base for it or it destroys other people's lives. I think the chief medical officer actually said that the other day - we must do whatever it takes to get the virus under control. I find that chilling.

@EmptyOrchestra

The effects of lockdown, cancelled operations/screenings and all the people too terrified to go to A&E with urgent conditions?

You honestly think that enormous spike which started before the first lockdown was implemented was mainly a result of those things?

No one said they all we're, but they account for at least 9k. It's no less disingenuous than your claiming they must all be covid.

@ProfessionalWeirdo

Frankly, this new strain sounds to me like an excuse for Boris to cover up how bad Brexit is going to be. We already have carnage at Dover and beyond.

This. The disaster that is Brexit will be blamed on Covid. How convenient.

It’s not. It’s all through scientific channels.

@Chessie678 well said. I have never supported lockdown and am not prepared to battle a virus with a very small death rate "at any cost", especially when that cost is the quality of life and freedoms of the entire country.

Chessie, I agree with you. I have been very surprised by the huge support for the massive damage we chose to inflict and for the loss of our rights and freedoms.

It is as if we have some higher aim to ensure hospitals are not full even though in January they always are completely full and turn people away anyway and nothing else matters. Certain things like flu and pneumonia have always been regarded as the old person's friend as they kill you off relatively easily compared with dementia etc. I am not really that sure why we could not have treated Covid that way and seen it is a friend not foe and let those who were worried just keep themselves away from most other people. However most countries have taken the British approach so I realise I have a minority view, that I prefer freedom even at risk of death.

Well said Chessie

@Chessie678

'Countries which didn't lockdown are not in a great position re covid for the most part but I'm not sure they're in much worse a position either.'

This is the exact point I'm making. Lockdown has major costs too.

It is v hard to know what to do. I understand people who say what is the alternative to lockdown. But before this, if you had suggested to the world that we would all stay at home for months, people would have said not a chance.

Imagine in the 1980's if this was suggested? People simply wouldn't/couldn't stay at home for months on end.

Delivered food services/ 24 hour entertainment via screens/the ability for the more privileged in society to work from home and a near universal weekly payment to stay on their couch made everyone pretty comfortable/anaesthetised to the realities of what these
changes would mean to the world, longterm.

I'd love to hear from some small business owners who have been impacted by this. I would imagine that a large proportion of Mumsnet's audience have not been financially affected by these changes, myself included. But as a result, I think they forget how easy we have it compared to some people. People who's voice
I never hear, without them being called Covid-deniers or conspiracy theorists.

Well said Chessie. Particularly this:

“We seem to have reached a mentality where literally anything is justified in order to try to control covid even if there is no evidence base for it or it destroys other people's lives. I think the chief medical officer actually said that the other day - we must do whatever it takes to get the virus under control. I find that chilling.”

Well said OP.

My DS (20) has lost two University friends to suicide in the last 6 months, & another attempted to take his own life last night. The cost to our young people is immeasurable. They may well be paying for this (mentally / physically / financially) for the rest of their lives.

My father (85), who lives alone, has lost all his confidence & feels unable to communicate with anyone but me. He's in tears every week & I fear for his mental health. I can just see him deteriorating before my eyes. Tier 4 Christmas lockdown means there's a very real chance he may not see his sons & his grandchildren ever again.

As a result of this pandemic, the average human being on this planet is unavoidably going to be poorer, less healthy, more mentally stressed and less well educated than we would have been without the pandemic. There's no way round that.

What will vary is how those harms are distributed and their size. Some people will barely be affected by some of those categories of harm. Some people will be less healthy because hospitals couldn't (not wouldn't!) give cancer treatment, some from covid itself. Some people are financially cushioned, others aren't. It's still all due to the virus.

I understand where the OP is coming from but I don't think we've got much choice right now but to try to suppress the virus because the alternative really is worse. Letting the amount of virus in circulation go up, even if most people don't die, is just not a viable alternative. The hospitalisation rate is too high.

Can I just add, when talking about the costs to children and young people, it is not just lack of education and socialising. I work in children's services and the effects that this has had on everything from foster placements to supported living and children's mental health service has been MASSIVE.
That's before you get into increased cases of abuse and neglect and online grooming.
A lot of these are children are already disadvantaged and suffering immense trauma. I can't talk about specifics or give examples due to the nature of my work but this has been the hardest, most relentless 9 months of my life. These children are suffering so so badly and it annoys the hell out of me when on so many threads the only detriment to children people can see is missed school and not seeing their mates. Showing once again that to a lot of people, these children don't exist.

Sorry if that was a bit rambly.

@turnitonagain we should just let everyone die from dementia then and ignore heart disease, cancer etc and not bother putting any money into research. If everyone had that attitude we would never have discovered penicillin. The point made which you completely issued is that we have more deaths every year from various health issues that have had limited resources invested into either their treatment, or research into a cure. COVID comes along and the government have spent billions on closing the economy causing long term funding issues that will play havoc for years to come with public sector funding and for what outcome.

There have been some crazy figures in this thread that we have ‘saved’ 500,000 excess deaths that would have happened if we hadn’t locked down and yet countries like Sweden who didn’t lockdown have had similar death rates.

The WHO have advised lockdowns do not work and countries should not do this. The World Health Organisation!

*ignored not issued

@Frankly321

It is disappointing that people are still spouting this nonsense.

Without a lockdown, we would have had 600,000 deaths and millions permanently disabled due to long COVID.

We have never had a proper lockdown in the U.K. Personally I would implement a tough stay at hike requirement until April 1st- no one leaves home at all unless they are a key worker who cannot work from home.

People should not be going out for walks or to Ikea. The army should be brought in to deliver food rations so that supermarkets can close.

I also like the idea of the French system where people must carry a certificate at all times stating why they are out.

Neighbours should be empowered to report non key workers seen leaving hoke to the army. I'd like to see tanks and soldiers patrolling- £5000 fine and straight to jail for those caught outside.

There will be tens of thousands of deaths if we do not lockdown properly now until Easter.

Jesus christ. Do people really think this? Why are you still living here - why not just move to North Korea or back in time to Nazi Germany. We live in a democracy, not a fascist police state.