To think we have gone collectively insane in our response to covid

[PlumsAreNotTheOnlyFruit]

This is something I have thought for a while. I feel like we are in the grip of insanity when it comes to our response to covid.

We seem to be prepared to destroy our economy, get into massive debt, surrender our freedom and mess up our children's education over covid.

It's a virus which can and will spread, and now seems more virulent than ever. Unless you have a total eradication policy, which is impossible for the UK to implement now anyway, then only mitigation is possible.

All of Europe whatever their policies have been now have many cases. Why do we have to suffer covid AND watch our businesses go under with a potential decade of economic misery.

How many lives have been saved by our policies? Has anyone even done an analysis? We reject cancer drugs because we say they are too expensive for the number of years of life saved. We allow polluting diesel vehicles to drive in urban areas despite the 40,000 who die each year from the effects of air pollution. Why is covid different?

I am cross that we haven't thrown everything at expanding health care capacity since March and instead have spent our money paying people not to work after closing things down.

Right now I feel that the virus will continue to spread whatever we do and that that our focus should be on shielding the most vulnerable until they can be vaccinated. I realise that isn't likely to be 100% effective but neither are our present policies.

I think I’d you’re giving Brazil as a model for how to handle the pandemic you’ve probably lost the argument.

@hollyangel Because the parameters for elderly and vulnerable are too wide. The economy is just as fucked if you take them out of the workforce. Plus as a strategy it’s tremendously flawed since these people will still need contact with the rest of society to exist - unless the Isle of Man has volunteered to have them??

@Cornettoninja You could argue they do pose an immediate threat to our health as there are such vast quantities of monies spent on the general ill-health of the population because of alcohol/smoking and sugar that it has led to this very situation whereby the NHS is creaking at the seams and then has to deal with yet more unhealthy people who need additional attention with Covid when at least 95 percent if not more of people who get Covid do not require hospital attention.

I also understand they are massive societal inequalities that lead to obesity and dependencies on cigarettes and alcohol and cheap food, so I don't want to minimise that.

However my central point was just that there are lots of draconian measures we could implement to keep our citizens alive/healthy.

@vickyp0llard

Errrrr. Ok then!

Hahahaha. Rightio!

YANBU OP, from the you're all sheeple, it's no worse than a cold mob to the you joked about Covid, you're a granny killer types, it appears many people have lost their fucking minds.

Is it a recognised effect of Covid I wonder?🧐

@vickyp0llard those figures are on the low side and anyway are for "with access to medical care " for the 8% of 50 and under who need it. Why are you quoting those figures when you are advocating for a "strategy" that means hospital beds wont be available for many in that category? What do you think will happen to them then? (Hint: most will die).

@hollyangel there is a little girl living near the south circular who died of asthma that I read about recently. There are many more like her. About 40,000 people a year.

We could have banned diesel vehicles in March and compensated their owners for a fraction of the cost of closing businesses for covid. It would have probably reduced covid deaths too by improving respiratory health in urban areas.

[quote hollyangel]@Cornettoninja Why not pay the elderly and vulnerable a living wage to shelter at home rather than imposing another national lockdown for months like in March and also like is about to happen now?
The NHS is already running at a massively reduced level. That's not sustainable and will cause further deaths.
This thread hasn't even touched on the mental health issues, suicides and increase in domestic violence, all caused by lockdown. Missed cancer screenings. Less money for cancer research. What about all these issues?
It's like plugging only one hole in a dam, what about all the other holes?[/quote]
What good would paying them to stay at home do? Most are staying at home anyway! The elderly and most vulnerable will need people to care for them, shop for them, etc and need to access medical treatment, all of which involves exposure to other people. Those people then have exposure to many other people. If shielding the elderly and vulnerable were logistically viable without all this, don’t you think that’s what would have been done? Do you think the tories want to tank the economy because they’re so concerned about the lives of elderly and vulnerable people? They’ve never given a shit before - if you think this is an attempt to protect them you’re mistaken. There’s a reason they were talking herd immunity before the first of many u-turns - they don’t give a shit about protecting the elderly and vulnerable.

@Belladonna12

Deaths are recorded as Covid if you died of anything, within 28 days of a positive test. That's extremely flawed. A lot of the people didn't even have a positive test, just "suspected covid".

It is extremely flawed but why assume it is an over estimate. Considering that not everyone who catches Covid will die within 28 days it could easily be an underestimate. Also. it's not recorded as a Covid death if they don't get a positive result before dying. A relative of mine died before the positive result and the death certificate therefore doesn't mention Covid.

Sometimes it is - any death certificate that mentions Covid (eg if the doctor suspected Covid but no swab results) even without a positive swab is recorded - PHE pick up on these after the event I believe.

If your relative's swab came up after death it would have been recorded retrospectively in Covid death numbers even though not on the death certificate.

@hollyangel; I understand your point but the fact remains none of your examples threaten to overwhelm and collapse the health service imminently. The scenarios aren’t remotely comparable.

It's like plugging only one hole in a dam, what about all the other holes?

Because if you don't plug that great big gaping hole the whole dam will collapse and there won't even be any more holes left to plug.

Yet more hypocrisy of people that were quite happy to be super-morbidly obese, or smoke/drink to excess, with all the risks to life that was known to cause - yet now demand that other people shut themselves indoors to "protect" them and their bad choices, otherwise they are selfish

It's a fair point
Back in the spring, when it was publicised that such things were risk factors in surviving Covid, there were endless posts from those who were "definitely going to lose weight now" and calls to quit smoking due to this respiratory virus

I wonder how many have actually done it?

I understand your point but the fact remains none of your examples threaten to overwhelm and collapse the health service imminently. The scenarios aren’t remotely comparable.

I think the point is also that the health service wouldn't have been at such a vulnerable state and so easily overwhelmed if we'd better tackled the many other health problems in the country - like smoking, obesity, pollution, alcohol. If we had a generally healthier population we would have had more hospital beds and also less people susceptible to death from covid due to pre-existing conditions.

Admittedly this was back in spring before widespread testing, but surely it would still have increased the numbers of supposed Covid deaths?

It’s not really the point is it? Look at the excess deaths over and above the five year average in the spring. Not all of those additional deaths were listed as COVID, but what else do you think is responsible for this if these people didn’t have COVID?

Do we think Sweden will have all the long term mental health issues in their population we are going to have? I know primaries stayed open so that’s a whole generation that didn’t have their education and mental health impacted.

Surely not as many businesses had to close? Surely the hospitality sector isn’t ruined? There are so many ways that long term they will fare better than other European countries that bankrupted themselves. You can’t compare economies now that doesn’t give you a true picture. Apparently we’ll be paying for this for 20 years. And all the impact that will have on education, police, health services.
Will Sweden?

Now isn’t the time to compare. We will feel the impact of these lockdowns for many, many years to come.

but what else do you think is responsible for this if these people didn’t have COVID?

The effects of lockdown, cancelled operations/screenings and all the people too terrified to go to A&E with urgent conditions?

@vickyp0llard I don’t disagree but how does that change the current situation?

It’s like looking at an oil spill and reacting by building an electric car factory. It’s irrelevant and of no help to the actual reality that is currently playing out.

I feel like these threads are quite pointless in a way. Even if you don't personally feel that covid is a threat, the rest of the world is taking it seriously and unless you want UK to be a pariah on the world stage (which is not a good look for Brexit Britain cos as an island, we need to inspire confidence and attract global investment) and its citizens banned from other countries (we are already banned from over 40 countries) for the foreseeable future; as well as our neighbours being apprehensive to allow their drivers to enter our borders to deliver food, we have to tackle this virus and keep infection rates low.

I commented a few days earlier that we should have learned from other asian countries who have dealt with the virus better like taiwan/singapore/japan/south korea. Taiwan got its first case after over 200 cases- if we had only 1 case or a similar proportion, i doubt london and the SE would be in tier 4. PP said that they didn't want to be a dictatorship and they value freedom and we have our own ways to deal with things. Turns out our own superior way is a lockdown that could be extended till april and no meeting during Chrismtas *shrugs But thats all water under the bridge now, we can't turn back time, we can only try to do better.

And the only way to keep infection rates low at this point is to lockdown. Its sad that its this way but there isn't a viable alternative. Yes there would be a terrible recession and millions would lose their jobs and become suicidal and this generation of children may well be a lost generation. This could all have been avoided but our leaders failed us.

@housemdwaswrong

I have to agree with most of what you’re saying

we are already banned from over 40 countries

The new strain will already be in many other countries

We are not pariahs because we picked up a mutation with advanced sequencing. A country cannot stop a virus mutating.

I'm sure the new strain has made it into every corner of the world by now, what with it having been discovered in September and already found in several countries.

No but a country's reaction to virus circulation can be varied and other countries may make choices based on the risks they perceive

@MarshaBradyo we would be a pariah if we knew there was a mutated strain that spreads twice as fast and don't lockdown to control infection rate. It's the right decision to lockdown albeit too late. I hate lockdown, i am a city girl but there isn't a choice.

@midgebabe

No but a country's reaction to virus circulation can be varied and other countries may make choices based on the risks they perceive

The actions are due to new strain. Not whether we lock down or not.

A shame the same advice wasn’t considered in Jan by WHO

[quote hopingforonlychild]@MarshaBradyo we would be a pariah if we knew there was a mutated strain that spreads twice as fast and don't lockdown to control infection rate. It's the right decision to lockdown albeit too late. I hate lockdown, i am a city girl but there isn't a choice.[/quote]
Why? It’s not whether we lock down or not.