Support bubble and overnight stays in tier 4

[redribbonbow]

Is this allowed still? I am being told it's not allowed but I can't find a source for this. That if you're in a support bubble you can still stay somewhere overnight even if you're in tier 4 sorry if already been asked I'm panicking.

It’s so poorly worded, it is completely ridiculous for an official communication from Downing Street. I understand how you could read it as redribbonbow above said:

This (the travel ban) includes staying with:
anyone you do not live with or
Are in a support bubble with

But I read it as:
This (the travel ban) includes staying with anyone you do not:
Live with (or are in a support bubble with).
As that makes more logical sense given how support bubbles normally work.

This government have a lot to answer for with this. It’s not fair to put out unclear messaging like this for the very people who are most vulnerable to the stress caused by this sudden change to the rules (which is why they are allowed support bubbles in the first place).

@rachelbloomfan

It’s so poorly worded, it is completely ridiculous for an official communication from Downing Street. I understand how you could read it as redribbonbow above said:

This (the travel ban) includes staying with:
anyone you do not live with or
Are in a support bubble with

But I read it as:
This (the travel ban) includes staying with anyone you do not:
Live with (or are in a support bubble with).
As that makes more logical sense given how support bubbles normally work.

This government have a lot to answer for with this. It’s not fair to put out unclear messaging like this for the very people who are most vulnerable to the stress caused by this sudden change to the rules (which is why they are allowed support bubbles in the first place).

I agree, the top interpretation would not make logical sense. I read it as the second interpretation.

Stuff like this should not need interpreting - how did this get out without being checked?!

@Kazmerelda I'm in that bracket and do not want to break any rules. I think it's so unclear. I'll wait until I see it absolutely clear that it's fine then. I get people saying it means it's ok but I personally think it's not worded in the correct way to accurately reflect that.

I also think it’s deliberately ambiguous.

It’s just ridiculous that we are all here on mumsnet at nearly 11pm trying to figure out what the government actually means and what the new guidance is, especially after waiting in a state of high anxiety all day for the details at 4pm. It’s bad enough that the website didn’t update with tier 4 rules at 4pm but even now that it has, it’s still clear as mud when it comes to support bubbles etc.

[quote redribbonbow]@BamboozledandBefuddled where is the word 'not' though? In your last line regarding support bubbles[/quote]
...or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with'

It applies to both anyone you live with AND anyone you are in a bubble with. The sentence literally makes no sense otherwise.

You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

It means staying with anyone you do NOT live with, or are NOT in a support bubble with, is not allowed. Staying with someone you DO live with or ARE in a support bubble with, is allowed. The ‘not’ is used once but is meant to include the ‘live with or are in a support bubble with’. Agree it’s appallingly worded.

I genuinely don’t think they intended to make it ambiguous, I think it’s much more likely that it’s just been rushed out with no thought for the details and nobody readproofing it before publishing it (although in my mind that’s no excuse as the rumours started last night so they had almost 24 hours to get a minion who has good English to write clear guidelines for all and any scenarios under consideration).

@rachelbloomfan yes agreed. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right but I cannot read it as ok personally. It's pathetic that it hasn't been appropriately proof read.
Should be crystal clear with no ambiguity even if it means I'm thick or whatever!

As to be fair is my post, having read it back

It is badly worded. Would a question request to BBC Breakfast or the like the worth a shot, that they may ask a politician

Relieved I’m not the only one trying to work out if it’s ok for support bubblers fo stay over. Ridiculous wording...

@PurpleMustang

It is badly worded. Would a question request to BBC Breakfast or the like the worth a shot, that they may ask a politician

That, or the BBC News site often asks people to send in questions the day after new rules are announced. Anyone would think the government make a habit of dishing out unintelligible gobbledygook!

@rachelbloomfan

I genuinely don’t think they intended to make it ambiguous, I think it’s much more likely that it’s just been rushed out with no thought for the details and nobody readproofing it before publishing it (although in my mind that’s no excuse as the rumours started last night so they had almost 24 hours to get a minion who has good English to write clear guidelines for all and any scenarios under consideration).

It isn't new wording, it's been there at least since tiers were introduced and overnight stays were banned in some tiers, so it's not rushed and they've had plenty of time to improve it. No idea why they haven't.

The wording re overnight stays has been like that on the gov website since before the November lockdown so there’s been plenty of time for it to have been amended.

Overnight stays for support bubbles have always been allowed as you’re classed as one household regardless of what tier you are in. That hasn’t changed

It might even have been there since support bubbles were introduced in June, as at the time nobody else was allowed to stay overnight anywhere with anyone.

You are allowed, even in Tier 4.
The wording needs to be changed! I think it’s deliberately ambiguous because BJ would prefer it if you didn’t do it. He advises against it, but it is allowed.

The way I see it is that according to the original guidance your support bubble counted as your household. Therefore you could stay overnight. The above passage to me reads that you still can as you are part of thst household

Professional Gov.uk interpreter here (aka a solicitor). 100% yes, if you are in a support bubble you are considered to be living under the same roof, even if you actually live hundreds of miles apart, so you can do anything you would do with people you live with, including moving between your two respective places of residence and staying overnight. The Tier system becomes irrelevant.

I'm so confused too.

Does that mean we can see our support bubble (same one all through) overnight at Christmas?

@Aerial2020 Yes it does. If you have a support bubble in law you are treated as all living together in the same house. The Tier system is absolutely irrelevant for those in support bubbles.

Thank you.

Hi OP! See my thread too. Lots of opinions there also.

The way I read it, you can't stay overnight even in your bubble. But who knows, maybe the 'permitted by law' bit allows you to.

I think all the gov stuff is dreadfully written tbh.

We had a debate about this recently , DS1 had visited his Dad who, along with siblings was later tested as positive. The government guidelines read...

Separated parents - two separate bubbles, members of both bubbles should SI in the event of a positive test in either bubble.

So is that - any members of both bubbles (DS) should SI? Or ALL members of both bubbles should SI? We felt it could read either way, baffling!