Christmas IS going to be cancelled - last minute.

[Elephant4]

Isn't it?

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/18/boris-johnson-calls-crisis-meeting-to-discuss-response-to-new-covid-strain

They're panicking now.

@TibetanTerrier they might not be here next month if people don’t. The detrimental effects of isolation, particularly to some frail and elderly people, are well documented.

Lockdown after Christmas won’t help those who catch the virus at Christmas though will it.

I wonder how people who haven’t seen anyone for months will cope with any germs a family may bring with them never mind COVID. So many families came down with bugs when children went back to school. Will the same happen amongst families mixing for the first time in months?

My mum and Dad (early 70’s) are insistent that we come and visit. They have been really quite depressed at not seeing their young grandchildren and have weighed up how many years they have left versus the risk

I can see that's tricky, but if they're early 70s and in reasonable health, for me it would be a case of thinking - protect myself for 6 months now but with the hope of another 10+ years, and seeing my grandchildren grow up. The risk is not negligible for them.

@Furrybootsyecomfy

Maybe I’m being a bit thick. Although people might be going to see family, social contact will be reduced for a lot of people as they won’t be going to work, school, uni etc? Or am I missing something?

You would have thought so but despite pubs being closed etc and no Christmas parties, infection rates have continued to rise which can only point to people gathering in homes in breach of the current rules - so people gathering indoors spreads the virus?

I know schools are an issue to some extent but it was ok in November. Also too many people going shopping maybe - I don't know because I did everything online and only go into local shops if there is no queue.

There is a lack of compromise though. You don't all need to gather together, especially if you live fairly close to each other, you can meet outside over the holidays in any tier (in England) and exchange presents.

I personally think that there should be an extra bank holiday next year No thanks, I prefer to take my holiday when everyone else isn't. Bank holidays are a pain with most people off at the same time.

Minority vs. majority is not the issue because if a minority group can suck it up then so can a majority group. People who celebrate Christmas are not more psychologically vulnerable than people who celebrate Eid or Passover.

Or indeed, people who celebrate Easter, the most important feast in the Christian calender, which happened under full lockdown this year. No exceptions made.

This sort of thing is why I get pissed off with people following the rulessss just because it’s the rules . Either mix or don’t the virus will not have changed in anyway by next week you either think it’s worth the risk or u don’t regardless of what boris tells you to do .

@ineedaholidaynow

Problem is many people’s risk assessment only includes their immediate family when working out mixing households, they are not thinking about anybody else outside that group they might infect. So if you can isolate for 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after Christmas, then yes your Christmas will be pretty risk free, but unless you can do both those things then you are possibly going to impact other people

If everyone in the group was isolating for 2 weeks before meeting , why would they need to isolate for two weeks afterwards as well ????

So people gathering in small groups inside houses is an issue but people gathering in large groups in offices, classrooms etc is ok? I personally don’t believe that a lot of the public are being 100% with PPE, SD etc. I work in a hospital and we find it hard enough!
Also I thought that October/ November were when cases really started to shoot up? And current rises are an expected seasonal continuation of that trend?
Sorry, I really am struggling to get my head around it.

That was in response to some of the responses not op by the way

People waiting to see what the government say to find out if they are allowed to do something . Personally I think mixing With other families is a bad idea and am having a small Christmas this year rules or no rules .
No I’m not one of those hiding in the house - iv worked outside of the home throughout All of this

I love the way people are quoting SAGE and the government as if its gospel

After the lies they told to put us in the last lockdown, are you not slightly suspicious this time?

I suppose it might be true this time though

I guess 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after should be pretty foolproof. So many times you see on here people saying they have been isolating and then say ‘oh apart from when ...’

'My mum and Dad (early 70’s) are insistent that we come and visit. They have been really quite depressed at not seeing their young grandchildren and have weighed up how many years they have left versus the risk'

That is very noble however the thing is when people get sick they rightly seek medical help. The numbers surge and hospitals becomes full. Therefore others struggle to get critical care.

If flouters signed a disclaimer saying they would not seek nhs help if they contact covid fine. Well not fine, it would be bizarre but this 'we'll take the risk!' When others pick up the pieces is the problem.

Doorstep visits, plated up food. Whatever. Keeping our relatives and others safe is the best Christmas present, cheesy though that sounds.

Horse has bolted even if it is, everyone who is determined to have Christmas get togethers is going to now. As it is, at least half the people I know seem to have cancelled, or replaced without outdoor only, any Xmas plans in the last week.

Just give us the full information and let us decide individual risks.

Unfortunately it's not just about individual risk and full information. Firstly because if I misunderstand or ignore the information and make a dangerous decision then that affects other people too. I expose myself and others to excess risk.

And secondly because it isn't just about me having to make my own decision, I also have to second guess everyone else's decision too. I might be willing to take a personal risk if everyone else is being cautious so e.g. I know I wont bump into into many people when I travel, or the NHS will cope if I do get ill. But if everyone takes a bigger risk and places are busy or the NHS gets overwhelmed then what I thought at the time was only a slightly risky decision becomes a lot more dangerous. And I can't predict what everyone else will decide to do, that information doesn't exist. We all roll the same dice over the same 5 days and we don't know how many people will do what. By the time I know how much risk I took it's too late.

I do think people appreciate being given the personal responsibility to make the right choice.

You may appreciate it but I don't want personal responsibility for a decision whose risk I can't personally assess.

I hope it gets announced this weekend, I also think we need a full lockdown. We now have Wales and NI doing this as well as Italy Germany and Holland

Italy and Germany lockdown allows for limited house visits, not sure about Holland. So read a bit deeper than the headlines.

People die everyday, people are "going missing" daily shared all over FB few seem to actually turn up.
Peoples MH will absolutely plummet if they put the plug on Christmas. Its easy to say use Zoom, that assumes elderly couples actually know how to.

Children are growing up fast and have hardly seen family this year. Stop and think what that's doing to Grandparents MH.

Not to mention the number of people saying "nobody is going to tell me I can't see my mum"

@Furrybootsyecomfy

So people gathering in small groups inside houses is an issue but people gathering in large groups in offices, classrooms etc is ok? I personally don’t believe that a lot of the public are being 100% with PPE, SD etc. I work in a hospital and we find it hard enough! Also I thought that October/ November were when cases really started to shoot up? And current rises are an expected seasonal continuation of that trend? Sorry, I really am struggling to get my head around it.

It's not ok to have large groups in school or work, it is a risk and will drive cases

People want work and school so they have to give up other things and accept some risk at the same time

Some people might choose different things to keep open and restrict but a free for all where each person chooses for themselves would probably mean that people only gave up what didn't affect them anyway.

Grrrrr at grandparents saying they don’t care if they catch the virus as it’s more important they see their family/haven’t many more Christmases etc etc.

It’s not about you and your preservation.

It’s about falling ill and occupying a hospital bed for weeks on end. Older people are much more likely to be hospitalised, therefore it’s important that they display some public spiritedness and don’t put themselves at risk.

'So people gathering in small groups inside houses is an issue but people gathering in large groups in offices, classrooms etc is ok?'

No it isnt 'ok', but work and school is essential. It is about reducing risk, we can't eliminate it. Plus we don't tend to hug colleagues or sit closely to them in a small unventilated room for hours.

I hope so.

My mind is blown that lapland uk is still operating. No idea how they are getting away with it.

Sorry, @GetOffYourHighHorse , I see I repeated what you said!

I find it incredible that people believe scientists don't care about mental health

They care about your mental health and the mental health of overworked hospital staff and the mental health of your neighbours children and the mental health of people who lose a husband to the virus and the mental health of the people with long COVID

Not just you

It shocks me that people are essentially waiting for the government to tell them what to do with their lives. Do whatever you want, it's your life!

@BonnieDundee - I know this probably won't make much difference but I think to need to understand the difference between 'telling lies' and 'things that aren't yet understood'.

The big clue in all this is that it is a novel virus. That means the advice and information will change as we come to know more. When C19 first appeared, we didn't know whether you might be able to catch it just by popping your head around the door of a room with an infected person in it - so we had to act basically as though that were the case. We didn't know whether surfaces were a big infection vector (now looks like not).

I trust this gov about as far as I can throw them, but I do trust scientists just doing their jobs. In few years time we might find that some of the precautions we have taken this whole time might turn out to have been unnecessary all along - not because anyone was 'lying' but because they didn't know what the parameters were with a new virus and so it was safer to err on the side of caution. You can only act on the information you have at the time, and in scientific terms, we have very little information available.

@IrmaFayLear

Sorry, *@GetOffYourHighHorse* , I see I repeated what you said!

Great minds .

I just don't know why people can't adapt and compromise. The thought of my parents alone on a rammed covid ward horrifies me far more than doorstep visits or zoom calls. Imagine having a houseful then everyone getting it, you'd feel so stupid not to mention incredibly stressed.

I don’t think they should cancel any religious celebration. We don’t live in a nanny state. Just give us the full information and let us decide individual risks.

I am so tired of hearing this.Because everyone is perfectly capable of assessing the risk of any particular action,aren't they? Unbiased by what they actually want to do.Even if it's in areas where they have no real knowledge or training. And it's not just about individual risk,it's about community risk.
Research has shown people are terrible at judging risk.
Actually I think "I don't want to live in a nanny state" is sometimes the equivalent of the toddler refusing to wear their shoes outside,mean nanny - No Shoes!
And in the best scenario your nanny/ mummy is making sure you get enough heathy food,and enough sleep,and appropriate clothes,and go to the doctor when you are ill,and ....and.
Awful,just awful.