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We're having 2-3 teachers a day catching CV19 DFE You're not keeping us safe

502 replies

Anon12345678910 · 05/12/2020 18:37

Look at the image from www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223
I've circled where we fall in classrooms. It's time for face coverings in classrooms. I don't want to loose any colleagues or my own life.

We're having 2-3 teachers a day catching CV19 DFE You're not keeping us safe
OP posts:
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6
IloveJKRowling · 07/12/2020 09:19

Completely agree with the OP. Schools are clearly not safe - says the science. There are loads and loads and loads and loads of scientific articles which say the same thing as the one referenced in the OP.

It's not just about distance, it's about exposure time. This is very, very very basic public health.

The DfE has failed to take the most basic mitigations (which are easy and cheap and achievable and in every other workplace) in schools - this is IMO actually criminal.

It's time to lawyer up teachers (and teaching unions). It's time to do some proper journalism, journalists (apart from TES who are already trying).

Sending best wishes to Aragog - it's awful that she needs to leave but I want the best for her and can't disagree with her decision.

CallmeAngelina · 07/12/2020 09:23

Still not getting it, are you, @Clavinova?

IloveJKRowling · 07/12/2020 09:23

What do you think about the bmj article in the OP @Clavinova?

Surely addressing that is more to the point rather than wasting your time nitpicking the statements of someone who has clearly been very ill - the bmj article is saying schools are unsafe - are you disagreeing with those scientists?

notevenat20 · 07/12/2020 09:29

The BMJ article does not say schools are unsafe. Schools have been open long enough now that we can just look at how many teachers have become ill compared to other professionals of the same for demographic. We don't need to guess.

Walkaround · 07/12/2020 09:35

@notevenat20 - well, if the data is being buried, you actually do have to guess.

CallmeAngelina · 07/12/2020 09:38

Yeah, except they're not divulging that data, and I'd bet my mortgage they know exactly the figures.
@notevenat20, Why are you so determined to believe and promote the idea that there is no problem in schools when the very people on the ground who know what conditions are like, are telling you over and over again? What is your agenda?

Clavinova · 07/12/2020 09:39

What do you think about the bmj article in the OP Clavinova

The bmj article seems to suggest that Aragog was not safe from aerosol transmission at the pub or the hotel - or from her adult colleagues at school.

ssd · 07/12/2020 09:47

My kids have left school but I still think it's a national disgrace how teachers have been treated.

notevenat20 · 07/12/2020 09:47

@notevenat20 - well, if the data is being buried, you actually do have to guess.

This is starting to sound all a bit Giuliani. I do not believe there is a global conspiracy to hide and/or fake data about the risk of covid to school teachers.

PrivateD00r · 07/12/2020 09:53

@Aragog

It's not a flounce or anything.

I have to be careful with my health, my stress and my blood pressure right now. Mumsnet isn't the right place for that right now. It a conclusion I've done to over the last week or so and tonight sealed it.

So whilst I may read eventually I won't be posting.

Take care

Please don't go on the back of a crazy stalker! You are one of my favourite posters, that's why when I 'see' you I always ask how you are doing. You come across as a really lovely and kind person, we will really miss you Flowers
Walkaround · 07/12/2020 10:02

Well, as we have parents who are in the national testing programme, we know that it is possible for children to get covid 19 from school, because we’ve had asymptomatic children test positive when their parents tested negative. I guess adults from different class bubbles get closer to their kids than their parents do and it’s never, ever anything to do with the other positive cases in symptomatic children in the same class. Wink The fact is that all ages of human being can transmit and catch the virus, even if some do it more than others.

IloveJKRowling · 07/12/2020 10:15

@Clavinova

You clearly have not read the paper properly.

It has been explained many times that teachers are not in high exposure settings with colleagues for hours (doesn't fit in bottom right hand red corner)

In a pub or hotel, anyone has to - by law - wear a mask so that reduces the risk again as shown in the table (as well as the much much lower exposure time) away from the bottom right hand corner.

The ONLY setting a teacher is in which is in the bottom red corner is in a classroom with students. This is also where they will spend many more hours (again bottom red, high risk) than in pub or restaurant.

The much much longer duration of exposure plus the lack of basic mitigations (masks - found in pubs or restaurants or hotel communal areas) means that it is much more likely to catch coronavirus in a classroom.

Bluebellpainting · 07/12/2020 10:17

@CallmeAngelina

Yeah, except they're not divulging that data, and I'd bet my mortgage they know exactly the figures. *@notevenat20*, Why are you so determined to believe and promote the idea that there is no problem in schools when the very people on the ground who know what conditions are like, are telling you over and over again? What is your agenda?
I suspect the data is available to them but not being published. Just like the issue to covid being spread in hospitals in recent months is only just coming to light and the scale of that issue hasn’t been brought to light.
Clavinova · 07/12/2020 10:34

IloveJKRowling
You clearly have not read the paper properly.

Yes, I did!

"A case report from an outbreak at a restaurant in China described 10 people within three families infected over one hour, at distances of up to 4.6 m and without direct physical contact."

notevenat20 · 07/12/2020 10:36

notevenat20, Why are you so determined to believe and promote the idea that there is no problem in schools when the very people on the ground who know what conditions are like, are telling you over and over again? What is your agenda?

There are a few issues here. Let me try to break them down.

Before schools reopened in September or just after they reopened it made sense to talk about the safety conditions in schools and to try to predict the effect on covid transmission. Personal experience of schools was hugely relevant. Now that schools have been open for months it has turned into a statistical question to try to work out if teachers have indeed been infected at a much higher risk than...well this is also tricky but... a reasonable comparator. We no longer have to look at school conditions and guess what the likely outcome might be.

The question of who to compare teachers to is the sort of thing statisticians love to study and I will leave it to them.

But one helpful related question is if parents of the children themselves have a different infection rate than either the teachers in the schools or other non-parents.

Internationally a number of related studies have been done but each can be dismissed because of the difference between the schools systems or just national cultures.

For those who take that line, this leaves us only with UK based studies and this is then of course much more limited.

In terms of agenda this is a term often used on MN and to be honest I am not sure I understand what is meant by it. If I were selling a product I could see what it might mean. But otherwise, is it just a synonym for "opinion"?

Clavinova · 07/12/2020 10:37

Teachers and TAs are in a classroom together for an hour at a time - they should both wear masks to protect each other. Workrooms, staffrooms?

TaxTheRatFarms · 07/12/2020 10:46

@Clavinova

IloveJKRowling You clearly have not read the paper properly.

Yes, I did!

"A case report from an outbreak at a restaurant in China described 10 people within three families infected over one hour, at distances of up to 4.6 m and without direct physical contact."

Goodness me. I wonder if I should be worried about teaching my year 10s and 11s. All adult sized (all my year 10s this year are taller than me! Fun times.) And very many of them within 4.6 metres of me for close to 2 hours at a time.

Or is it only Chinese people who spread it that far?

Or only people over the age of 18?

Or is there some kind of weakness in the walls of restaurants, allowing the covid in?

christinarossetti19 · 07/12/2020 10:52

Aragog I've just caught up with this thread.

I'm sorry that you've had such an awful time in RL, and then have had to endure the unpleasant, stalkery personal attacks on MN.

Look after yourself.

Clavinova · 07/12/2020 10:54

TaxTheRatFarms

Clearly you can reduce your risk of exposure by avoiding pubs, restaurants and cafes - all optional activities. You could also wear a mask yourself at work - the Scottish government at least claims it offers some protection for the wearer.

notevenat20 · 07/12/2020 11:05

Or is it only Chinese people who spread it that far? Or only people over the age of 18? Or is there some kind of weakness in the walls of restaurants, allowing the covid in?

It is apparently all about air flow. Not that that helps anyone in practice :)

TaxTheRatFarms · 07/12/2020 11:11

I last went to a pub/restaurant in February this year. I went to an outdoor cafe in June. I didn’t ask about the risk of dining out, though, I asked about the risk of a classroom.

I’m glad you agree that I should wear a mask in the classroom and that the dfe are absolutely wrong to advise teachers not to.

noblegiraffe · 07/12/2020 11:12

[quote notevenat20]**@notevenat20 - well, if the data is being buried, you actually do have to guess.

This is starting to sound all a bit Giuliani. I do not believe there is a global conspiracy to hide and/or fake data about the risk of covid to school teachers.[/quote]
No, just a local one. Look at the TES link I provided about how the ONS have been reported for data misrepresentation.

International data is irrelevant if they’re not working in the same conditions as here.

helpfulperson · 07/12/2020 11:19

Has anyone compared the English data with Scottish where masks are worn, all day if in level 3 in secondary?

Clavinova · 07/12/2020 11:20

borntobequiet
Clavinova has in the past accused me of bullying her, when I all I had done was refute some of her assertations and @ her.

Oh yes, I've just noticed your latest post from earlier today;

"My early morning catch up reminding me that Clavinova is a useful idiot..."

WhoevenisGavin · 07/12/2020 11:25

You really need to stop this now clavinova.