MHRA approves Pfizer jab for use in UK

[AuntieStella]

News just breaking on BBC

So what’s the answer? Do you think they should be pinned down and vaccinated just because they are NHS staff?

No, because that would be assault. It can be simply dealt with via recruitment, promotion, and sickness absence policies. Basically, a case of have the vaccine if you are clinically able or you won't work here/get promoted/will get a warning if off sick for covid.

Is it just doctors and nurses you feel this way about, or are you disappointed in anyone who works for the NHS in any capacity that doesn’t want it?

Just clinical staff. Those trained to value and promote evidence-based practice and to advocate the same for their patients. If Mary the Ward Clerk doesn't want the vaccine, then that's up to her, she isn't expected to provide healthcare advice or promote evidence based practice. I might think Mary is as thick as two short planks for her stance, and I would hope that she doesn't try to impose her views on others, nor that she infects those on her ward who have been unable to have the vaccine for clinical reasons. In future, people like Mary may find they can't get a job in the NHS or get promoted, as their anti-vax stance makes them a liability to vulnerable staff and patients. That's her own lookout.

And yes, ThornAmongRoses, I think that's 100% ok. Nurses and Doctors already have to have compulsory vaccinations to do the job. If we don't like it, we don't do the job. It's as simple as that.

I’m very much so looking forward to what stance my employers take on this when the vaccines start coming into force.

They don’t mind if we don’t have the flu vaccine so I wonder if it would be any different with this - and if so, what do they plan to do?

Like I said, many nurses on my ward have said they won’t have it.....I can’t see that removing us from the ward and putting us into ‘sidelined’ roles will be of much benefit to their staffing levels and therefore the functioning capability of the ward.

I guess time will tell what they plan to do with us all.

OK then, should GPs refuse to see any patient who isn't covid and flu vaccinated? Same for maternity services, A&E etc? That is a bit of a slippery slope isn't it? Where would it lead to?

It is very concerning that some NHS staff think coercion is appropriate. I hope you don't try that with your patients!

Do u think it will be available private? My dad is 83 and lost his partner of 30 years to COVID in very distressing circumstances in lockdown 1. He's been in his house alone for months and needs to see people. I'd pay for him today to have it. Although he's 83, he's on level 2 and there is only enough for 1/2 of level 2 in this batch. He may have to wait ages.

I'm pissed off teachers are not on that list.

I guess time will tell what they plan to do with us all

Indeed it will. Perhaps nothing, initially, due to staffing levels needed. Except for needing PPE when vaccinated colleagues don't. Or being denied promotion. Or being unable to move into any other NHS role as they all specify Covid vaccinations as mandatory. It depends if you think that is nothing.

There is a huge reason why the NHS is likely to treat covid vaccines differently to the flu vaccine: Covid isn't the flu! And the health ramifications of covid being transmitted in the workplace are enormous.

@ThornAmongstRoses

They can just not renew contracts if they are on temporary ones which many people are. They can overlook people for promotion. They can restrict the areas they work in. Like any employer, they can make life difficult.

And you think that’s ok do you?

Staff should have to choose between having something injected in to them that they don’t want, or be treated like you’ve described above?

As if there weren’t already enough perks of working for the NHS.

It is a ridiculous suggestion. I actually plan on having the vaccine but I find it disturbing that people would be so willing to remove bodily autonomy from anyone.

@PuzzledObserver

The problem is people will have the vaccine and think I’m safe and off they go about their normal life but really its run out after x amount of time and they are vulnerable and could carrying the virus and passing it on.

I’m not a scientist. But, as a reasonably intelligent person, if I had been involved in running the trials, would I wave goodbye to the participants as soon as the vaccine was authorised? I would not.

Instead, I would continue to follow up trial participants, regularly testing them for both antibodies and T-cells. And probably Covid infection as well. Once they showed signs of immunity waning, we would have six months’ notice of the need to provide a booster jab to the general public.

You are absolutely right, @PuzzledObserver. The trial that I’m in follows you for 12 months after the second jab, and I think at least one of the others is following up for 2 years. There were blood samples taken at baseline and there will be more at 3, 6 and 12 months.

This is all just common sense. Although I’m absolutely over the moon about the vaccine approval, it’s very disheartening to see such a negative response. I wouldn’t trust any member of this government as far as I could throw them, but I totally support them on this.

It is very concerning that some NHS staff think coercion is appropriate. I hope you don't try that with your patients!

There is a massive difference between coercion and your employer having boundaries over vaccines needed to do a job. Don't like it? Don't do the job! I don't see people up in arms about having to be checked for Rubella immunity or having Hep jabs before they can practise.

Some people are wary of the speed in approving the vaccine because they don't trust Boris Johnson.
Looking at the list of MRHA members I think it's very unlikely they'd let him influence their decision.

@WokesFromHome

Do u think it will be available private? My dad is 83 and lost his partner of 30 years to COVID in very distressing circumstances in lockdown 1. He's been in his house alone for months and needs to see people. I'd pay for him today to have it. Although he's 83, he's on level 2 and there is only enough for 1/2 of level 2 in this batch. He may have to wait ages.

I'm pissed off teachers are not on that list.

Aw it won't be available privately just yet as it would be unethical. I doubt he will wait long though

Teachers will get offered it eventually too, but they need to be patient, it is important to focus on older people first as age seems to be biggest risk factor for serious illness/death. Same with all high risk occupations. NHS staff are not getting it for themselves remember, it is to protect vulnerable patients.

@PrivateD00r

OK then, should GPs refuse to see any patient who isn't covid and flu vaccinated? Same for maternity services, A&E etc? That is a bit of a slippery slope isn't it? Where would it lead to?

There's been a "slippery slope" of poor hygiene/cleaning standards which has led us to this pandemic in the first place.

I'd expect, even if everyone was vaccinated, that high risk places like hospitals, surgeries, etc have far better hygiene/cleaning standards to avoid other infectious diseases (like norovirus) being transmitted.

Vaccination is one part of the "new normal", but Covid has exposed poor cleaning/hygiene, crowded areas, etc., which will also have to be addressed in due course.

@SirChing

It is very concerning that some NHS staff think coercion is appropriate. I hope you don't try that with your patients!

There is a massive difference between coercion and your employer having boundaries over vaccines needed to do a job. Don't like it? Don't do the job! I don't see people up in arms about having to be checked for Rubella immunity or having Hep jabs before they can practise.

There is a world of difference between being offered vaccinations/titre testing before starting university and being coerced into a vaccine to retain your career.

My 3 courses of Hep B vaccines didn't work, I am still not immune. So should I be sacked now then?

Kazzy, that is an odd way to interpret my post

I don't think you need to worry about the number of negative posters on this thread. Apparently 20% of people are saying that they won't have the vaccine with people 18- (36?) Ish most like to refuse but I reckon most of them will have their sleeves rolled up when it's a condition of their summer holiday.

@FourTeaFallOut

I don't think you need to worry about the number of negative posters on this thread. Apparently 20% of people are saying that they won't have the vaccine with people 18- (36?) Ish most like to refuse but I reckon most of them will have their sleeves rolled up when it's a condition of their summer holiday.

I think you might be right there haha

[quote purplefig]@JustHereWithMyPopcorn
Yeah!! Bloody BMJ with their tinfoil hats.

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425[/quote]
Christ, some people need to learn to read.

@FourTeaFallOut

I don't think you need to worry about the number of negative posters on this thread. Apparently 20% of people are saying that they won't have the vaccine with people 18- (36?) Ish most like to refuse but I reckon most of them will have their sleeves rolled up when it's a condition of their summer holiday.

I reckon so. Until then I’m imagining planes filled with a completely different demographic. Living it up while we wait.

There is a world of difference between being offered vaccinations/titre testing before starting university and being coerced into a vaccine to retain your career

They aren't "offered" as something nice to have it you fancy them. They were mandatory for admission to my course. Not to protect the students but to protect patients, and rightly so!

My 3 courses of Hep B vaccines didn't work, I am still not immune. So should I be sacked now then?

Not at all. Because you did all the right things and it just didn't work for you. There's a massive difference between the vaccine not working, and refusing to have it in the first place.

Any employer can make any stipulations they like, within the law, about what criterion they look for in their staff. If the NHS only want vaccinated people, that's their choice. If staff don't want the vaccine, that's their choice, but the staff member can then hardly object if they are moved to a role with no exposure to patients or other staff who may vulnerable. The NHS has a duty of care to its employees. It really will put the needs of the many above the preferences of the few. People won't be sacked, but they may find their ability to practice becomes incredibly difficult, due to their employer not being keen to expose the equivalent of Typhoid Mary to vulnerable patients and staff.

Oh, and the comment about should GPs refuse to see unvaccinated patients.....of course not! It's in no way comparable.

Ahh but language is everything. I say 'offered' because it is an offer, obviously if one declines, they will be declined from the course. However it is still an offer. It is very important in healthcare to 'offer' interventions, treatments, medications etc. No one should ever feel forced into accepting any health care. It is very clear from the language that you use that you feel differently. I am actually going to be doing peer vaccination on top of my normal job because I am keen to do my bit to get this rolled out. However I will absolutely not be supporting the coercion of any staff into having it.

Becoming NHS staff does not mean you lose your human rights thankfully.

Anyway thankfully there has been no suggestion that this will even happen so I guess this is getting a bit pointless now

Ah so it is only NHS staff who should be coerced into getting vaccinated to protect patients, but not vice versa. Got you.

Becoming NHS staff does not mean you lose your human rights thankfully.

Sometimes it does. Quite a few roles where you must have your hep b vaccination before you can go on placement as a student. If you’re a non responder you must have annual hep b tests. Every job I’ve gone for it’s been a condition of employment I have a hiv and hep b test.

Doesn’t bother me personally but I certainly have no choice.

No, I don't think differently at all! No-one should be forced, but then if they won't, they might not be able to do what they want. That's it!

My grandma has just been given covid by a nurse in her rehab unit. The idea that in the future, this may have happened because the nurse didn't fancy the vaccination, makes my blood boil.

Refuse the vaccine by all means. Just don't then be around vulnerable staff and patients, potentially putting their lives at risk. That's not coercion, that's having standards.

In the same way that if I want to set up a food take away, I have to have food hygiene documentation. I am not coerced to do it. I just can't do what I want to for a career without it! When someone's job can affect the health, safety and even life of others, it's ok to make the ability to do that job contingent on the health of the staff involved. It's why the NMC has a "fitness to practice" clause in their registration documents, after all!