So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

If some venues (and I suspect airlines) decide that they won't let you in without proof of being vaccinated, then you still have a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it.

t doesn’t matter if the vaccine is perfectly harmless - which it probably is, the point is we shouldn’t be forced in to having it.

No you shouldn't, so it's a good job that that won't be happening, isn't it? Unfortunately, it may be the case that entities beyond the control of the UK government decide they wish to exclude people who are willingly unvaccinated, but there isn't a great deal we can do about that. Shockingly, Boris Johnson is not king of the world (no matter how much he may have wished to be) so can't force, for example, the Australian government to admit people they don't want in their country.

@Jaxhog

If some venues (and I suspect airlines) decide that they won't let you in without proof of being vaccinated, then you still have a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Exactly. I also saw an alternative "passport" for people who had regular covid tests, so not necessarily just based on having the vaccination - possibly an alternative for people willing to have covid tests every few days too.

I don't get this 'civil liberties' guff. We have to have laws so we can live peacefully and safely together e.g. seat belts, speed limits, theft etc. Why is this any different?

Badbackbernie, I don't want site to be an echo chamber. I want valid debate. Not people debating if they have freedom to be vaccinated or not. Because we do. We already have a choice of not get vaccinated. So saying they are forced is not true, no matter what the people like op says.
I rather want to know all the facts, what to be expected, risks, etc to prepare.
I will get vaccinated, but that doesn't mean I am without fear. I just think it's worth the risk.

@Fleshlumpeater

People against having this vaccine never seem to be able to come up with an alternative plan. Rolling lockdowns forever?

Unfortunately we are living in a time that had had a pandemic. We are now having to face a choice that generations before us didn’t have to make- have a vaccine and take a tiny chance of vaccine injury or don’t take that tiny chance and continue to have some restrictions placed on where we can go. No it’s not fair but thats what life has thrown at us.

We’ve been having epidemics for over 5000 years. They pass.

We’ve recently had awful flu pandemics, new vaccines were made and the people that needed the vaccine - had it.

No vaccine passport needed.

Generally if you cannot be vaccinated there is a medical exemption applied to your files - this worked where governments have made vaccination compulsory for state school provision. Unfortunately some people abuse this system getting fake records to allow them to choose not to get them however generally it works.
I have travelled to countries where vaccination is compulsory but I couldn't have that particular one (I cannot have live vaccines as I'm immunosuppressed) and I have got a drs letter that states this - however I am aware that this makes me more vulnerable and I have unfortunately once returned from a business trip to Africa with something I couldn't get vaccinated against - it wasn't much fun and was quite scary.
Those of us who can't have these things generally wish we could and don't get the angst of those who are perfectly well and extremely unlikely to have problems with them. We rely on enough uptake in the general population to protect us and we don't get the choice you get.
Ask for more information if you need it but don't dismiss it because you are being 'forced' to contribute to society if you want to be part of it, the choice is a luxury many don't get.

@Alexafrost

"If you dont want the vaccine your access to some areas may be limited, but that is your choice, and choices have consequences. Pros amd cons on both sides that each person can weigh up."

Perhaps shops can stop gay people coming in in case they have Aids or check if people have had their flu vaccine as well. They can stop anyone coming in with a cough or a sniffle, you never know what they might be.

I’m astonished that in 2020 you still think aids is a gay disease.

“ people who choose not to have the vaccine are going to have a major impact on everyone else’s lives. ”

Why? If you’ve been vaccinated, it won’t impact you.

@Pinkroses87 What about if you have immunity from natural infection?

@bumbleymummy because natural immunity is impossible to quantify properly, and if enough people refuse to get vaccinated, the government has to assume we don’t have herd immunity and that we do have to maintain the restrictions. The whole point of these restrictions is essentially to stop the NHS being swamped. If that can’t be guaranteed, then we have to continue behaving as we are. Which I, for one, have absolutely no interest in doing.

People travel for work this isn’t just about going to Spain on holiday for a week. As adults we should be able to choose what goes in to our bodies with out our civil liberties being taken

Do you whine about civil liberties when you need vaccinations to travel? Do you complain about being forced to wear a seat belt? Or any of the other things that you have to do to be part of society?

With rights come responsbilities. Don't be a dick.

Sure! As long as you're over 50.

The under-50s are on the vaccine schedule too, and there are enough doses on order to vaccinate everyone several times over.

My daughter caught the measles. Due to a huge influx of people not vaccinating. Back in 2013 ish.

I caught Whooping Cough in 2012 for the same reason. Not fun.

@Burpeesshmurpees

Today 10:29Jaxhog

If some venues (and I suspect airlines) decide that they won't let you in without proof of being vaccinated, then you still have a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Sure! As long as you're over 50.

You’ve got a real bug up your arse about this but the under 50s are on the schedule to be vaccinated and enough doses are ordered to do it. Or do you think you should be first?

Yes it’s a very worrying development. Huge implications for free will and any suspicion of corporations. You effectively have to opt out of modern society.

Take heart as the numbers more sceptical in other parts of Europe such as Germany and Italy are much higher so I don’t see this issue going away soon

It's not stopping you from not having it though.

Venues and hospitality industries have the right to protect their staff and guests. I hope most places will enforce it.

You're perfectly able to refuse the vaccine, but accept that it means you can't go on as normal.

Can't imagine Wetherspoons will care about protecting their staff so people refusing the vaccine can go there.

Personally, I don't see the problem.

The vaccine wont be compulsory any more than visiting the venues that demand proof of vaccination will be.

There are already loads of things that people do that require them to hand over medical information, such as applying for insurance, participating in extreme sports or athletic events even going trampolining.

The difference here is that it isn't just the individual at risk, it's everybody else, and that in turn puts the businesses at risk. If there's a step they can reasonably take to reduce that risk, fair enough.

I fully agree it shouldn't apply to retail shops, public transport and the like, but if it means a small restaurant can open at full capacity again, or football grounds can have 70,000 spectators at no additional risk, then that's fine by me.

It's the same principle that I teach my kids, society offers a lot of privileges and opportunities, but none of them are entirely free, they all come with a responsibility to contribute to that society to enjoy them.

@pastandpresent

Badbackbernie, I don't want site to be an echo chamber. I want valid debate. Not people debating if they have freedom to be vaccinated or not. Because we do. We already have a choice of not get vaccinated. So saying they are forced is not true, no matter what the people like op says. I rather want to know all the facts, what to be expected, risks, etc to prepare. I will get vaccinated, but that doesn't mean I am without fear. I just think it's worth the risk.

But it is a valid debate to that poster, to me and other posters. You just don’t like the topic.

There are plenty of threads about the mechanisms of the virus. Lots of articles on google to educate yourself with.

This post wasn’t about facts or how to prepare for it or risks - this is about whether vaccines should be mandatory or people being coerced in to it. - which MN recognised and has allowed the post to stand.

If you want a post that lists the above you want to talk about start a thread about it instead of trying to get this one closed down.

“ COVID is not like Chicken Pox which is low risk so therefore not vaccinated against. This awful infection kills people”

It’s mild/asymptomatic for the majority of people.

@SmileyClare

No more selfish that is not rushing out every year to get the flu vaccine because there are a few in vulnerable groups who can’t have it or decide not to take it. If people choose not to be vaccinated and contract the disease they will also be immune and contributing to herd immunity.

By the way ‘anti-vaxx’ doesn’t mean someone who just doesn’t want one particular vaccine.

I'm CEV, I don't want people around me forced to have the vaccine to protect me. It's down to me to take responsibility for my health because society goes out and about with the contagious stuff on a daily basis. CV has just highlighted it more as more people have been exposed to how many of us lived our lives well before CV came along.

Companies that want to exclude the un vaxxed, I wish them luck and await to see how long before they back track. Although the government may have ordered a massive amount, the roll out will take time, just look at how long the flu vax program is rolled out for.

Family oriented places won't be able to operate for a lot longer considering where the testing stage is at for those under 18.

I am also extremely concerned that for this the compensation scheme will not be applied.

Not everyone wants the app, I don't know anyone with the app tbh.And can anyone really seeing Gp's spending their overworked days issuing exemption letters and especially at no cost.

If it becomes a part of the travel vax program, it should be inline with the existing program.

And before someone comes saying saying if I had.... I wouldn't be saying this.

I have had CV, I have had flu, pneumonia, various serious chest infections for over a year (started with a cold I cannot shift). I've been hospitalised, isolated, intubated and more countless times over my life.

Thing is, Gigheimer, those are the same thing.

What is the difference between an 'established vaccine' and this one? I think a bit of more information would make you feel more comfortable...

I would equate your approach to the topic as similar to the following dilemma (which is real, but a very small minority):
What if a jehovah's witness is in a traffic accident, is unconscious and losing blood and rushed to hospital and is given a blood transfusion by emergency medics? Most people dont have a problem with that, but to some jehovah's witnesses this is 'medical interference' that they disagree with...

It's a dilemma sure, but I hate to say it, it's a dilemma borne of your own beliefs and therefore your own making. If you do not wish any 'medical interference' no matter how routine, safe, and to protect lives just because you have some certain beliefs, then yeah, unfortunately its difficult for you to live in society.
In the same way that you could fundamentally disagree with having a bank account/paying national insurance... you're welcome to it, but makes it kind of difficult to live in society

By the way ‘anti-vaxx’ doesn’t mean someone who just doesn’t want one particular vaccine

Yeah, it does. The whole world has been hoping and praying for this vaccine, if you're not on board, you are mostly definitely an anti-vaxxer.

@Gigheimer

Oh and before we all forget, death and disease is a fact of life. The virus is never going away even with a vaccine. The start point of this was not “let’s save all lives and eradicate the virus”.

It was “let’s save the NHS which is critically underfunded and unable to cope with a low death rate viral infection.

Voluntary vaccination stops that. It does the job we started with. I may even take the damn thing as part of my commitment to our social contract who knows.

But we’ve been moved from the place we started to a nanny state and ha ding over freedoms wholesale with nary an eyebrow raised, and created a culture of vicious backlash to those who question.

Death and disease may be a fact of life.

But personally speaking, I'm glad there are vaccines/immunisations for polio, mumps, rubella, measles, TB, meningitis etc So, lots of 'fact of life' deaths when I was a child.
So yes, I'll have the covid one (I'll probably be quite close to the top of the list, age-wise)

And those of you that won't, take a risk yourself if you like, but I don't want you risking my family's health (the ones who are seriously vulnerable)

Those who can be immunised (not medically exempt) should. In some countries it’s compulsory to be vaccinated in order to attend school and it should be the same here in my opinion. If this year has shown us anything, it should be that our actions affect not only us, but those we come into contact with and ultimately the population as a whole. There are people who rely on the rest of us to do the right thing so they can have lives outside the confines of their homes.

I think this is a great idea and hope we do something similar in the US. It will be enormously helpful to healthcare workers to know who's had it. We have a long historical acceptance of mandatory vaccination for school and university attendance.

I think the requirement to show the passport while phase out as herd immunity is achieved.