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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

947 replies

Gigheimer · 30/11/2020 23:12

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right Hmm

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

OP posts:
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pastandpresent · 01/12/2020 08:38

Haha, I have a choice to voice my opinion on a free forum. I don't want to be dictated by you where I post or what to do/not to do. See the double standard? Grin

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/12/2020 08:39

Ah! That old chestnut!

Mandatory or compulsory!

Quite different things. Compulsory vaccs have been a reality since vaccines were invented. But the UK doesn't have mandatory ones!

There's a slim difference but it boils down to mandatory = government edict

Compulsory = more local, individual organisations - so schooling is compulsory, but you choose where, etc.

So the givernment is not making it mandatory that we all have the vaccine but individual organisations are making it a condition of entry!

Badbackbernie · 01/12/2020 08:40

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

I completely agree with you, OP, and certain other PPs, but unfortunately, COVID and the rationality/proportionality of responses to it have become one of those things that you're just not allowed to question - at least not without being called all of the insults under the Sun and branded a granny-murderer.

As I thought you made very clear (but many seemed to believe differently), it is not technically compulsory, but if you are not allowed to live any kind of normal basic life without it, it effectively does become compulsory.

I'd say it's along the same lines as there being no UK law that forces you to have a bank account - but just try living any kind of normal life without one. Accessing the internet is quickly heading that way, too; the great many elderly folk (and others) who do not trust or understand it and/or have no interest in it or confidence in learning to get online are currently able to live a vastly inferiorly-served life without it, but I don't think it's going to be long before any vestige of choice is effectively removed, along with the assurance that a 95yo bedbound person can easily toddle along to the library and access it there, thus 'nobody is excluded'.

In fact, we're seeing a similar thing with the masks now. There are people who have genuine medical reasons not to have to wear them (some of them simply cannot breathe with one on), but although they are legally exempt, we all know exactly what response they are receiving in reality if they dare to go out in public and try to buy food or access other essential services. It's basically a form of democratically-endorsed discrimination and hatred against the disabled.

If this were like The Plague where almost everybody who contracted it would soon die a painful death, I'd understand the reaction far more; but it's a virus which has no or minor effects on virtually everybody who gets it.

I will get abused for this view, but I also think the total official number of deaths is legitimately questionable and fundamentally flawed, when anybody who tests positive (or, in the early days, was assumed to be, based on often-generic symptoms) and dies of ANY cause within four weeks is counted as a COVID death. The most vulnerable to COVID are also virtually all those who are already most vulnerable of dying from old age and/or existing health conditions. Over 1,800 people die in the UK every year from road accidents and doubtless all of those will have drunk water in the week before they tragically die - but nobody in their right mind would ever dream of attributing their deaths to 'consumption of assumed-poisoned water'. Of course, I accept that COVID or any kind of virus will sometimes ultimately be the reason for (or a major contributing factor to) the death of a vulnerable person, but there are no guarantees whatsoever that it is undeniable fact in every single case. Indeed, for all we know, a young, fit person could contract COVID and then fall off a sheer cliff on to jagged rocks below, a fortnight later and, going on the stated statistical criteria, be subsequently accounted for as a COVID death.

I also think it's very interesting that it's being hailed as the perfect fail-safe solution to protecting the population from a 99.5%+ non-serious virus by rushing out now to administer a vaccine that has, so far, been declared to be anything between 70-95% effective.

The comparisons with things like seat belts and airport security measures are crazy. A seat belt is external and does not have a continuing effect once removed. I'm happy to accept that I cannot travel abroad on a plane , should I refuse to comply with the regulations; indeed, have long been denied the right to go abroad at all should I refuse to obtain and pay for a passport. What I can't accept is that I potentially could not even buy food anywhere in my own neighbourhood unless I agree to have chemicals and organisms irreversibly inserted into my body, regardless of what those ingredients may or may not be; and if I DO 'agree' to it (the alternative being basically an inability to survive), what step comes next 'for the safety of everybody' - ensuring that I don't hold any non-government-sanctioned views or beliefs which would thus define me as a 'potential terrorist' and similarly see me banned from shops or any other public places unless I renounce them? It's about fundamental personal liberty - and promising to ensure somebody's freedom under virtually impossible conditions is no real liberty at all.

I await a flaming.

Great post and I agree with everything you’ve said - and many other do.

However not everyone will roll over so easy. I was on a business support forum last night and many business owners will not implement this - myself included. Unless - it’s enforced by the LA or government which we will then know it certainly is mandatory which is indeed very worrying.

I’m hoping it just won’t be practical. There is some thought that it may need to be yearly - like the flu. Could be a logistical nightmare as they couldn’t even get track and trace sorted.

Gigheimer · 01/12/2020 08:41

Well you won’t know why this is compulsory by the back door then Jingles or why I believe it’s a very real possibility, well done, you should be proud of your lack of critical thought.

And yes I’m being snippy but it’s irritating when people think a valued contribution is just to be dismissive, nasty or throw words like cunt and conspiracy around to anything that doesn’t fit the frothing rhetoric and complete unquestioning allegiance to a governmental message that a few months ago the overwhelming opinion on here was led by someone untrustworthy and destructive (BREXIT anyone?) not that I’m saying what side of that fence I sit.

I don’t agree with GinCanny but I’ll give her all due respect that she’s debating, with clear counter positions and alternative facts.

We are lacking questioning and critical thought on all current decisions, even outside of the all consuming Covid.

#nodebate #cancelculture #deplatform

What a world we inhabit...

OP posts:
CrunchyCarrot · 01/12/2020 08:41

I am getting heartily fed up with this issue devolving into a black and white 'have the vaccine to save society and return us to normal' or 'don't have it because you are selfish and don't believe 'the science' when you should'. It really isn't that simple for some of us.

Some of us are worried, repeat worried about having a vaccine that might set our health back, because we already have health issues such as autoimmunity. This isn't a baseless concern. We have every right to be cautious. A vaccination cannot be reversed. There's a letter in the BMJ re the possibility of the mRNA Covid vaccine causing autoimmunity:

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4347/rr-6

This is the BMJ, a respected medical journal, not a conspiracy site. Yes it's just a possibility, but these things need investigating further, and it's not wrong to want that.

By all means, if you are healthy or even if you are not, and wish to have a Covid vaccine, by all means do so. I'm not saying you shouldn't, nor am I anti-vax.

In an age when mental health is supposed to be so important, there are many here who are trampling over the mental health of those who are worried about what this vaccine may do in terms of affecting their health. There needs to be more understanding and compassion instead of pitchforks. Listen to why people are worried, take it on board. Be kind.

Are you angry because those of us who don't want to have the vaccine or are maybe just unsure about it are delaying your 'return to normal'? Is that where the anger is coming from? Please don't take it out on your fellow human. Try to understand.

Gigheimer · 01/12/2020 08:43

Past you missed the sarcasm.

Hope thank you mumsnet HQ. It is a valid debate.

OP posts:
trulydelicious · 01/12/2020 08:43

@TibetanTerrier

Likewise the 1976 swine 'flu jab also created problems for many, many receivers.

How about Pandemrix? That was a new vaccine approved by the EU in 2009. I suppose you will say that the UK Narcolepsy society are also conspiracy theorists?

www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

Roussette · 01/12/2020 08:45

This thread is very much .. 'I'm not an anti vaxxer but...'

Don't have it if you don't want it, but just suck up the restrictions and don't moan because there are people out there who can't have it and wny should you impact on their lives?

I'm old, my DH is older... we cannot wait. The only good thing about getting old at the moment is the fact we are fairly high up the list for the vaccine. I'd have it tomorrow if I could because our age means we are more at risk than most.

oh and... by the way... my DD was one of the ones who has had it through vaccine trials. She was carefully monitored and she undertook this for the greater good so that people out there can have this vaccine and this nightmare can recede. I don't have any patience with those who don't want it to be frank.

I know someone who is refusing to have it. Her 93 year old mother is in a care home and she won't be able to visit her. She said 'what will be, will be'. I'm not having it.
Then someone told her she wouldn't be able to fly long haul (which she does yearly) without the vaccine and would you believe it... she's changing her mind. You couldn't make it up.
There's an element of selfishness with some (not all) of those saying they aren't having it.

Also... this vaccine has been worked on for years and years, not the finer parts of it, but most of it.

Kazmerelda · 01/12/2020 08:49

@blacksax

I still think that anyone who refuses to have the vaccine needs their head examined.
What about those who have genetic markers that cause reactions? or auto immune conditions? Those whose families have been severely affected by the effects of a vaccine?

It's not that simple....

And before someone comes at me I am pro-vaccine with them actually testing the damn things properly and KNOWING genetic issues. I am also someone who can't have/hasn't had certain vaccines due to genetic issues and quite significant disabilities caused by vaccination reactions.

StormzyinaTCup · 01/12/2020 08:49

I’m on the fence at the moment and can see both sides of the argument. Since hearing about the vaccine I have always had Thalidamide in the back of my mind as other posters have said.

There hasn’t been sufficient testing on people who are taking other medications, people with Dementia and a whole host of other conditions, to see if there are groups currently unknown that it’s not recommended for. Its been rushed out under pressure so I hope it’s not a quick fix to get us out of the current situation which may have long term consequences.

My DH is in the CEV group so it’s a no brainer for him to have it but me and the DC, I’m still thinking about that one.

MyPersona · 01/12/2020 08:50

So again @Gigheimer what do you propose?

We currently can’t live a normal life.

Are you of the opinion that the restrictions are wrong and that everything should be open with the vulnerable hidden away?

Or do you accept that a vaccine is necessary to get back to normality?

If you believe a vaccine is needed to get all of our freedoms back, do you think that those who are willing should just crack on and thereby you’ll get yours back?

You’ve started a thread with a pretty full on title, so if you succeed in warning people not to let their civil liberties be eroded, and uptake is low as a result, are you ok with staying in recurrent lockdowns indefinitely? Or do just think the vulnerable should stay in indefinitely?

I’d really like to understand your thoughts on how it should work.

Genevieva · 01/12/2020 08:51

It won't be mandatory but if you don't have a vaccine passport you will be denied access to a wide range of venues...

As long as the main vulnerable categories have had it to protect themselves (over 65, diabetic etc) then it shouldn't matter.

I am pro-vaccine, but I am also in favour of privacy on medical decisions and treatments. If someone does not have the vaccine, whether it is for personal, religious or medical reasons, I do not think they should be excluded from enjoying the same recreational facilities and public services as the rest of society.

Nighttimenope · 01/12/2020 08:52

@Gigheimer I am with you absolutely.

ACanOfBeans · 01/12/2020 08:54

I’ve had all my vaccines, my children have had all their vaccines. None of us will be having a COVID one, a) we’ve already had it, so it’s unnecessary. B) it’s too rushed for me to trust it. C) I find the sort of thing sinister and it persuades me against the vaccine.

gurglebelly · 01/12/2020 08:56

@happinessischocolate

If you're not vaccinated you're a risk to the health of others who can't have the vaccine or who it doesn't work for, so not surprising that airlines, immigration boards, large venues, etc are considering limiting access to those who are vaccinated. I'd imagine travel insurance will charge you more in the future if you're not vaccinated too.

If you don't have the vaccine how can you be a risk to people who can't have the vaccine? The people that can't have it won't be allowed those places anyway 🤷‍♀️

It is worrying, my dd has a severe phobia of needles so there's no way she'll ever get the vaccine, she's missed out on many already.

I would expect those who can't have it would get a medical exemption certificate from their doctor, in the same way you do if you can't have the yellow fever vaccination.

But it would have to be a proper medical exemption, not a 'I don't want to, so I've printed something off the Internet' exemption

Gregariousfox · 01/12/2020 08:57

@Rousette I don't think people are angry because anyone is stopping us getting back to normal. If we can have the vaccine and be allowed into places you can't go, that's fine by me. The OP seems to think that's unfair, though. So seems to prefer that we're all in lockdown to protect their freedoms not to have the vaccine. That's where I draw the line.

No one's saying that anyone has to have the vaccine, so your mental health is protected. Just that you may have potential consequences to that, such as private organisations deciding not to let you in. And I defend their rights to make that decision, even if that pisses you off.

Roussette · 01/12/2020 08:59

Agree Gregarious.

Don't have it, but don't moan you are being restricted on what you can do. You are the ones who should be shielding, not those who can't have the vaccine for medical reasons, why should they be compromised?

EasterIssland · 01/12/2020 09:00

@ACanOfBeans

I’ve had all my vaccines, my children have had all their vaccines. None of us will be having a COVID one, a) we’ve already had it, so it’s unnecessary. B) it’s too rushed for me to trust it. C) I find the sort of thing sinister and it persuades me against the vaccine.
you know you might not be immune to it forever dont you? even with a vaccine we'd need to be getting every now and again like the flu one, so the I've had covid won't mean you're not eligible for one
im5050 · 01/12/2020 09:00

I agree with you OP
I will have it because I want to be able to travel abroad
But if it wasn’t for that I wouldn’t have it
Also I wonder how this will work
Will it be another piece of ID that we have to carry with us
I can eventually see it as make it law to have an ID card law now to enter places and this card will have your covid vac on it 😂. Big brother will know when you get a Starbucks 😂
Sounds completely crazy but then this whole year had been FUBAR.

CoffeeCreamandSugar · 01/12/2020 09:01

Some of the rhetoric on here and emotive language used to try and shame people into having this vaccination is awful.

I’m not an antivaxer. My children have had every single vaccination except for the flu one and so have my husband and I.

I am a business owner. I will not be making the covid vaccination compulsory for people to access my service.

And do you know what? If we can’t access other services because we haven’t had the vaccine so be it. No one should have the right to force anyone to have medical treatment they don’t want.

It’s a slippery slope.

MyPersona · 01/12/2020 09:02

@ACanOfBeans

I’ve had all my vaccines, my children have had all their vaccines. None of us will be having a COVID one, a) we’ve already had it, so it’s unnecessary. B) it’s too rushed for me to trust it. C) I find the sort of thing sinister and it persuades me against the vaccine.
A) You don’t know if having the virus makes the vaccine unnecessary, so far it doesn’t seem to confer long lasting immunity.

B) It isn’t rushed.

C) What sort of thing is it you find sinister and have you considered seeking information from sources other than social media and conspiracy theorists?

Roussette · 01/12/2020 09:02

I have the flu vaccine every year, and imagine that the covid vaccine will take place yearly like that as time rolls on.

MaxNormal · 01/12/2020 09:02

I've been following these discussions with mounting horror over the last few days.

I am far from an anti-vaxxer. I had all my vaccinations as a child and would likewise have had my own children innoculated should I have had any. I've also always followed the rules and considered others in society. I am a blood donor and on the organ donation register, and also signed up as a bone marrow doner although I believe I'm too old now.

I got injured by a medication - not a vaccine - three years ago. It caused multi-system damage with the worst being neurological. It was horrific, traumatic and very lonely, and recovery has been long and remains only partial. I lost my career and my social life, and the strain it put on my DH is immense.

One of the issues it's left me with is extremely poor tolerance for various medications, antibiotics for one, which isn't brilliant. I don't even manage paracetamol very well. And when I say poor tolerance, when I react to something it seems to re-trigger a lot of my worst initial symptoms and I am then unwell for months.
As a result, I just don't take anything. If I were to become life-or-death unwell obviously I'd have to make a choice, but day to day I avoid taking anything.

For all that my health is damaged, I don't have any of the underlying health conditions that put me at additional risk of a severe illness should I contract covid, my immune system is actually very good in terms of not being prone to respiratory illnesses, ever since I started taking Vitamin D. And I did have what was likely covid but unfortunately quite early on, in March so no testing available.

For me personally, the vaccine carries a large risk of adverse reaction just because medication in general does. I don't feel I can have it. I am not selfish, but it's a sacrifice too far to expect me to go through the pain, discomfort and distress of another bad reaction.

Yes with all this talk of immunity passports, there was been absolutely nothing said to reassure those that are less likely to do well from the vaccine. No suggestion of any sort of excmption system, just this awful worrying limbo.
In addition, I don't even know what would be considered grounds for exemption. I'm lucky in that I have a very sympathetic, on-side consultant but I'm not due to see him till March so I honestly don't know his thoughts on this.

I've already suffered a huge amount of exclusion as has anyone who has been seriously or chronically ill, and I've fought very hard over the last three years to get some semblence of a life back. Now I have the possibility of being further excluded, possibly permanently, and it's a very black thought.

As CrunchyCarrot said upthread, there are people with legitimate medical concerns here who need to be listened to and reassured. Because reading that we're selfish and should be excluded from normal life, or what few parts of it we do manage to enjoy, is very hurtful and very frightening.

diddl · 01/12/2020 09:03

@AldiAisleofCrap

Good, if you are to selfish to protect the vulnerable who can’t be vaccinated, then I am not going to lose sleep if you can’t go on holiday or to your local pub.
Do people who can't be vaccinated get an exemption then or are they excluded along with those who choose not to have it?
Harryfrog12 · 01/12/2020 09:05

I wonder if these companies who are making it mandortory can put it in the terms of an employment contract. Would that be legal

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