Getting sick of Tory backbenchers

[lovelemoncurd]

Why is Johnson surrounded by these mini Trump characters who are constantly pushing for less restrictions? Just pay people more to tide them over the next few months. Be cautious until the vaccine arrives. They continuously quote crappy research arguing for the ineffectiveness about incentives that their party have put in place ! They are very odd indeed!

They are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.

@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong Indeed but it's still a shit one!

I’m sick of the entire Tory party tbh.

We have a joke government.

In your opinion .
Their opinion may not match yours (or mine), but I imagine they can see the devastation lockdown is causing to their local communities.
There are many views, and they happen to hold a different one.
We can’t silence people who hold different opinions.

@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong even the Labour government are supporting the measures for the sake of presenting a unified message to keep people safe but some of these Tories want their moment in the sun at any cost!

[quote lovelemoncurd]@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong even the Labour government are supporting the measures for the sake of presenting a unified message to keep people safe but some of these Tories want their moment in the sun at any cost! [/quote]
So we should be silencing them, then?

Well- I've always voted Labour, so far. Am 100% sure I'll never ever vote Tory.

BUT - I'm relieved these Tory backbenchers are questioning the measures put into place. No one else seems to be. And we all should be.

The current and future health of the nation is not just about bringing infection and death rates down. Not by a long shot.

I would go into this in more detail OP - but get the feeling it may be a waste of my time, so I'll leave it there.

@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong Didn't see OP saying they should be silenced. You on the other hand do seem keen for her not to share her opinion that they aren't being helpful, so aren't you the silencing one?

Having a wide range of views and opinions is a good thing.

@Dustballs

Well- I've always voted Labour, so far. Am 100% sure I'll never ever vote Tory.

BUT - I'm relieved these Tory backbenchers are questioning the measures put into place. No one else seems to be. And we all should be.

The current and future health of the nation is not just about bringing infection and death rates down. Not by a long shot.

I would go into this in more detail OP - but get the feeling it may be a waste of my time, so I'll leave it there.

Agreed. And I say that as a fully paid up member of the Labour Party.

[quote PullTheBricksDown]@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong Didn't see OP saying they should be silenced. You on the other hand do seem keen for her not to share her opinion that they aren't being helpful, so aren't you the silencing one?[/quote]
I’m having a discussion. The OP gave her opinion and I’m giving mine. That’s how discussions (and democracies) work.

I never mentioned silencing did I ? They are free to give an opinion but they seem in direct contrast to their own parties policies. I wondered if they are wanting some of the spotlight?

@lovelemoncurd

I never mentioned silencing did I ? They are free to give an opinion but they seem in direct contrast to their own parties policies. I wondered if they are wanting some of the spotlight?

That’s why I put a question mark... I was asking your opinion on whether they should be silenced. People within parties hold different opinions. It’s an MP’s job to speak up for their constituents, not just to tow the party line.

I agree with OP - why are a noisy little group of 70 MPs getting to dictate policy.
They are just noisy bullies.
They are undermining democracy with their minority views.
Boris Johnson needs to man up and do the right thing.

I'll think you're missing the point of their objections OP. Read this and it might make more sense to you.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/23/threat-of-tory-revolt-remains-as-johnson-to-unveil-post-lockdown-measures-for-england

The clearest part for me is:

Baker said: “We do need to stand up for people, because we know that livelihoods matter, we know that there’s nothing quite like poverty for shortening your life and diminishing your life chances. So all of these things continue to matter.”

What do you mean by they 'seem to be in direct contrast to their own parties policies'?

undermining democracy

What do you consider to be the meaning of democracy? And why do you think it is being undermined?

They are entitled to their opinion, not to override the majority of MPs and public opinion with their opinions.
There are 70 of them.
Do we really want national virus policy dictated by these 70 noisy people?
That is not democracy.

Sorry that question was for @LurgyOnTheLoose

What do you consider to be the meaning of democracy? And why do you think it is being undermined?

Also why do you feel that these backbenchers have 'minority views'?

Do we really want national virus policy dictated by these 70 noisy people?
That is not democracy.

Ok - how many people are making the decisions currently to lock us down, put us in tiers etc?

Do you know what democracy means?

MPs should be representing their constituents views. If these MPs are getting large volumes of letters, emails and calls from people worried about the restrictions infringing civil liberties, the destruction to business and lack of support for many sectors then they absolutely should be airing those views in Parliament. Or would you prefer every MP to toe party line in every situation? Because that is a slippy slope.

These backbenchers challenging the current narrative is exactly what we need. That doesn’t mean that I agree with them entirely but in a democracy any policy but especially one with such huge detrimental impact to millions of people should be tested and changed if the evidence is there. People like the op who are happy to give up any amount of their freedoms to keep us “safe” are blinkered and short sighted. Covid deaths are not the only thing that a government should consider.

Actually, yes that is democracy. I believe it's called the balance of power, and is often used to great effect by people who have very serious concerns that they want the executive to address. Perhaps this group of 70-something Tory backbench MPs have important things that they think the government needs to address and are forgetting about? Perhaps they have good reason to believe that current lockdown measures are ineffective/disproportionate/something else? What exactly is it that you're objecting to in their opinions? Just that they disagree with yours?

@LurgyOnTheLoose

I agree with OP - why are a noisy little group of 70 MPs getting to dictate policy. They are just noisy bullies. They are undermining democracy with their minority views. Boris Johnson needs to man up and do the right thing.

The last load of policy was dictated by out of date modelling

I think it’s obvious that Europe and the US have made a right fist of dealing with the pandemic. A combination of arrogance in their preparation, a cultural adherence to libertarian values, and desire to maintain free movement of people has led to an inadequate response.

I don’t think a change in government colour here would make much of a difference in how that played out.

Those Tory mps are voicing a combination of things. Their tendency is towards libertarian values and lack of government interference in people’s lives and the economy. Those values exist in democracies like ours and need to be heard whether we think they are right or wrong.

Fundamentally there has always been a conflict between liberty and public health interventions. If you read the declaration on human rights, it references Public health intervention as being an reason to set those rights aside. That can go against instinct and supposed common sense.

I'm wondering.....why was support for shielding stopped as cases increased again? Why were families with members who needed to shield threatened with school attendance fines. Why were they given such bleak options?

I'm glad to see these 'noisy bullies' adding more nuance to discussion.