To be in tears over this?

[HumanFemale1]

This is so inhumane. What has been done to elderly during this time will stay with me forever.

@Porcupineinwaiting

Maybe he doesnt want to risk contacting covid, he looks pretty vulnerable. Just because he is elderly and uses a wheelchair doesnt mean his life has no worth and he's happy to give it all up for one more visit with the grandchildren. Maybe he thinks its worth hanging on another couple of months for a vaccine.

I agree with this.

Everyone is having a shit time of it in some way or another. Children are missing out on getting to be children IYKWIM, teens are suffering with their mental health and having their education compromised. Working adults are at risk all day, furloughed and redundant adults are safe but struggling for money, WAH and SAHPs are going stir crazy, the ill are untreated, the vulnerable are lonely, the elderly are lonely too and quite possibly confused.

Anything we do to make things easier for one these groups can make things worse for another group. There's no solution to this at all - we just have to hold on until that vaccine comes. Even then, things will still be dicey for a while.

There is no point is getting emotional - it won't solve anything and just drains our own energy. What we can do though, is do our utmost to control the spread on a personal level. Follow the guidelines for the greater good. If something upsets us, think about what we can do for that group of people.

My parents and grandparent would rather shield than be dead.

My mum went into a home last October. She was incredibly frail and had dementia. From March visits were banned. I managed one socially distanced garden visit in August. She had deteriorated hugely. Lost weight and was very confused. Two days later she had a fall and broke her hip. I was allowed to see her just once in hospital to encourage her to eat. Fully gowned and masked she barely recognised me. She died in hospital 2 weeks later alone. Think about this. My mum only saw me twice in her last 6 months. Previously we saw each other once or twice a week. I understand the care homes situation is really difficult. People in care homes are very vulnerable to COVID but they also generally do not have a long life ahead of them. They are not able to make the choice over seeing family or shielding. I think the delay in resolving safe visiting is a disgrace. The government should have given far more priority to the testing system.

And to the people who have said we all need to just grit our teeth and get in with it or stop being emotional: it's really easy to say that when you are not personally affected.

@Isthatitnow

families should be prioritised for testing and PPE so they can be with their loved ones

No. Priority for testing should be for people working in persistent close contact with others - healthcare professionals, school staff, social workers etc. No one should be getting ill and dying just for doing their job.

Agree.

Private testing could be an option so people can visit but then there no saying they didn’t contract covid after the test before the visit so not without risk still.

Sorry to break it to you but the majority of the people in the world is going to alone and suddenly, without getting to say goodbye to their loved ones.

Life isn't a hollywood movie where you know you're going to die 3 days before so you have time for goodbyes and meaningful deathbed conversations.

I posted my comment to which you replied in response to this:
Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years...

...This comment seems to echo the previous comment that the old are of little account and if one thing doesn't carry them off then it will be another, life is nasty, brutish, and short, so we should all just shrug.

I can't share the sentiment expressed there. The cause of death matters and the circumstances of death matter, and I suspect that a large number of the people who die each year of heart disease, cancer, and alzheimers - the three most frequent causes of death - are (in normal times) able to pass away having said their goodbyes, with HCPs present who are able to offer some human comfort to the dying and the bereaved alike. If you have figures to back up your assertion that the vast majority of deaths occur suddenly and alone in the UK, without any human comfort whatsoever as is the case with covid, I would like to see them.

I can't imagine anyone embracing the prospect of dying alone in the sterile conditions warranted by covid treatment. It behoves us all to do our utmost to ensure that loved ones do not have to face their final days in those circumstances.

We know how this can be done, and nobody promised it would be easy, but older people don't deserve to be written off.

I also think the way its been handled is a disgrace.
I think its especially cruel in hospice care homes/homes for end of life care a relative was in one and locked down march-aug, 2yrs into a 2-5yr life expectancy. Saw his young children twice in early aug, died end of august.

really don’t understand the logic of locking people up who have severe life limiting illness when they could die at any moment, seems unbelievably cruel to deprive them of the very short amount of time they have left.

@isthatitnow

I'm not suggesting that families are prioritised AHEAD of staff, I'm suggesting that they are prioritised alongside. Treated as part of the care team the way parents are alongside children who are in hospital.

The testing programme fell over because the team running community testing failed to realise that Rhinovirus spreads significantly every September. It's in a much better place now.

There are examples on this thread of where it can be done. It's a balance like everything with this pandemic.

Who says death is preferable to this? My 78 year old disabled and somewhat frail mum wouldn't agree with you she isn't in a care home ,but she's not ready to die just yet thanks .

My Auntie is in a care home in Radcliffe in Greater Manchester. She's 81. She tested positive last week, she has no symptoms, she was tested as some of the other residents began displaying mild symptoms and so a mass test was rolled out. She spoke to my mum yesterday and said she would rather die than be alone like this. All the other residents are saying the same thing. We aren't protecting elderly people by treating them like this, we are condemning them to the most miserable existence possible.

And my 78 year old mum lives just up the Road from your Auntie in Bury @RegularHumanBartender and doesn't want to die yet ,you don't get to speak for all elderly people

Hopefully this will all be sorted and people will be able to see their elderly relatives.

Luckly no one in the care home I work in have had covid.

"All the other residents are saying the same"

And you know this because you've spoken to them? Or are you extrapolating? What about the care staff? Are they up to die too?

If you live communally then understand that your choices- to drink, to smoke, to play loud music, to contract dangerous diseases- may be curtailed for the common good. Anyone with capacity can leave a care home though.

@Porcupineinwaiting I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that residents in homes should do what they like and put each other and the staff at risk. What I and others have expressed is that the government has failed to do more to enable care home residents, many who are in the last months of their lives, to see a family member. The government has had 9 months now to come up with a strategy and ensure that all care homes adhere to it. The disparity between what different care homes have offered is crazy.

www.newscientist.com/article/2259044-coronavirus-rules-for-care-homes-are-too-strict-and-not-science-based/

There is no scientific data suggesting that visitors have been the source of an outbreak in a care home. Some research is said to indicate that care home risk is related to the size of the care home, but more research is needed before that can be proved, including rigour in diagnostic definitions of covid-19 deaths. Governments have denied that it is related to discharge of large numbers of untested or covid-19 positive patients into care homes although this seems intuitively probable. In truth, all the data is flawed and it is too soon to say.

I think there's a fair bit of concern over things like this - I do think the care homes are in diffiuclt positions though.

Maybe he doesn’t want to die? and maybe he doesn’t want to
contribute to hospitals overflowing with corona virus cases, and seein others die of cancer etc because their treatment being put on hold to care for the him, others in the facility and the staff?
You might be ok catching it and dying, but are you also ok directly and indirectly endangering the health of others? like the nurse caring for you (and catching coronavirus), or the nice lady next door who’s cancer diagnosis was delayed due to you, your nurse and many others having to be looked after, and who will
no unfortunately die?

There is no scientific data suggesting visitors have been the source of an outbreak in a care home

Maybe not, but unless you think that care home visitors are somehow immune from catching and transmitting COVID I think it's safe to assume that more visitors = more risk of transmission. I dont think that should automatically equate to no visitors but equally do we need to see a scientific paper outlining a dozen incidences of transmission by visitors before we adopt precautionary measures?

@Porcupineinwaiting

There is no scientific data suggesting visitors have been the source of an outbreak in a care home

Maybe not, but unless you think that care home visitors are somehow immune from catching and transmitting COVID I think it's safe to assume that more visitors = more risk of transmission. I dont think that should automatically equate to no visitors but equally do we need to see a scientific paper outlining a dozen incidences of transmission by visitors before we adopt precautionary measures?

In the article: and a review of covid-19 in care homes led by the London School of Economics, which involved researchers in Australia and Canada, found no evidence of visitor impact on infections.

Despite this the article is clear they they're not suggesting throwing all precautions out.

Current rules place blanket bans on all who live in a care home and all those who might wish to visit. But with the right precautions, such as individual risk assessments and making sure meeting places are well ventilated, care home restrictions could be sensibly loosened. And that could save lives.

They are also highlighting that the isolation and lack of vistors has a known downside.

It is well documented that social isolation accelerates deterioration in people with dementia. So, these restrictions are killing people.

This is written by someone in the field:

That is why I and more than 60 experts and organisations have issued a call this week for action demanding that restrictions on care home visits in the UK be lifted.

The whole point is the risk balance may need tweaking and focusing soley on covid risk is causing other harm.

@Piglet208
But this care home is allowing visitors. There is a big difference between allowing responsible adults to visit alone and allowing whole families including young children (who are incapable of reliably socially distancing) to visit. While care homes should be looking at ways to safely manage the former (albeit not on the usual scale) it simply isn't possible to safely allow the latter and families should respect this.

@ohnothisagain I doubt he is given any choice in the matter. My MIL really needs to go into a care home but she and FIL won't countenance it while they would be prevented from seeing each other. So an 82yo with Parkinsons, a heart condition and cancer continues to be the main carer for someone who is paralysed, can't communicate and suffers seizures.

social isolation accelerates deterioration in people with dementia

People living in care homes are not socially isolated though, they are living as part of a community. In a good care home there will be good quality social interaction available throughout the day. Does that mean that family visits are not important? Of course not. But they do not account for the majority of the interaction that individual will get.

We have a room that visitors can come and see their relatives. There is a clear scene dividing the room, family have to still wear ppe. They do have to ring and book a time.

Yes i know its not ideal but it is what we are working with. We have activities during the day so none of them are bored (well i hope not).

I hope testing for relatives come in quicker so our residents can see family.

@mathanxiety

Sorry to break it to you but the majority of the people in the world is going to alone and suddenly, without getting to say goodbye to their loved ones.

Life isn't a hollywood movie where you know you're going to die 3 days before so you have time for goodbyes and meaningful deathbed conversations.

I posted my comment to which you replied in response to this:
Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years...

...This comment seems to echo the previous comment that the old are of little account and if one thing doesn't carry them off then it will be another, life is nasty, brutish, and short, so we should all just shrug.

I can't share the sentiment expressed there. The cause of death matters and the circumstances of death matter, and I suspect that a large number of the people who die each year of heart disease, cancer, and alzheimers - the three most frequent causes of death - are (in normal times) able to pass away having said their goodbyes, with HCPs present who are able to offer some human comfort to the dying and the bereaved alike. If you have figures to back up your assertion that the vast majority of deaths occur suddenly and alone in the UK, without any human comfort whatsoever as is the case with covid, I would like to see them.

I can't imagine anyone embracing the prospect of dying alone in the sterile conditions warranted by covid treatment. It behoves us all to do our utmost to ensure that loved ones do not have to face their final days in those circumstances.

We know how this can be done, and nobody promised it would be easy, but older people don't deserve to be written off.

Agree so much with you mathaxiety. I'm vulnerable to this virus and so is my husband. I'm not afraid of dying so much as how I die. The prospect of dyeing alone in a hospital bed without my husband or children to say goodbye is terrifying to me. I will avoid it if I possibly can.

Also my parents are 89 and 85. Neither of them have expressed a desire to get on with it and risk their lives. They will be some of the first to get the vaccine and hopefully live out their allotted years as best they can. My mum is blind and has dementia. I can't imagine how awful it will be for her to be taken into hospital in the midst of a pandemic with no one she recognises with her. It's too terrible to contemplate and if I can do my bit to prevent that happening to her or anyone else, I will.

YYY knittingaddict.

My mum loved her social life with her retirement group and misses it terribly. She's fit and well, going on 87, and feels dreadful about having to isolate. She had me look up readings and hymns for her funeral earlier this year, she has money set aside for a coffin and flowers for the church, burial plot is already seen to, and we have discussed whether a nephew of hers who is a musician would have to be counted among the allowed 25 mourners at her funeral (Ireland) or if he could be slipped in under some other category to liven up the proceedings. Death itself isn't what she is afraid of. Being lorried out of her home of 54 years and dying alone in a hospital with too few staff is what has her horrified.