To be in tears over this?

[HumanFemale1]

This is so inhumane. What has been done to elderly during this time will stay with me forever.

Death is inevitable, this isn’t.

We’ve moved in with my parents this lockdown (unrelatedly, we’re between households) but my ECV dad says these days with his granddaughter are the best thing in a year of awfulness. He’s got an immune condition that means a bad cold could kill him, but as a result he really does get that it’s quality over quantity.

Thats absolutely heart breaking and I dont know what the solution is but I dont think all elderly people would agree that death is better. My gran died of covid a few weeks ago, she had a fall and went into hospital where she caught covid and was dead 10 days later. They let us in to say goodbye and every single one of us caught it from her - me, my dad and stepmum have all been really ill, the kids have had it mildly, and my grandad is in a very bad way - were just hoping he can get through the funeral without ending up in hospital himself. Its all very well to say "death is better than isolation" and maybe some would agree and make that choice but my grandparents wouldn't have. They were okay with the window visits for a bit longer. The government should throw some money into making care home visits safe but they won't, they cba to even try and make schools safe, and we definitely can't just let the virus rampage through care homes willy nilly again, once was enough.

“The first travesty was allowing the virus to rampage care homes, the second was assuming residents could wait it out in the same way most other people can.“

But surely those are contradictory. If you object to the virus rampaging in care homes, and we don’t have a vaccine yet and sufficient testing for family is only just becoming available, what is/was your alternative to distancing/no visits for keeping it out of care homes?

@ShinyGreenElephant

People running care homes are between a rock and a hard place. I know of one which lost over a third of its residents to Covid during the first wave. Now it’s got another outbreak. That’s what they are attempting to protect residents from.

@Porcupineinwaiting

Maybe he doesnt want to risk contacting covid, he looks pretty vulnerable. Just because he is elderly and uses a wheelchair doesnt mean his life has no worth and he's happy to give it all up for one more visit with the grandchildren. Maybe he thinks its worth hanging on another couple of months for a vaccine.

Yes, this.

@smallwhiterat no they're not because we're not in the same place as we were in April.

Staff in care homes have testing and PPE. Family members (not everyone but just one person would be a start) should be treated like staff.

families should be prioritised for testing and PPE so they can be with their loved ones

No. Priority for testing should be for people working in persistent close contact with others - healthcare professionals, school staff, social workers etc. No one should be getting ill and dying just for doing their job.

“Staff in care homes have testing and PPE. Family members (not everyone but just one person would be a start) should be treated like staff.”

Yes, and that is what they are starting to do. It was only a couple of months ago that you couldn’t even get a test if you were symptomatic. It takes time to build up capacity and the machines that allow homes to test on site weren’t available until very recently.

Also note though, despite staff testing and ppe, people are still catching it in care homes. That will increase if people are allowed family visits. There’s no risk free way of having close up visits and unfortunately even if a person wants to take that risk they’re also taking it on behalf of all the other residents. There are no easy answers.

Mum lives in a private care unit and recently I mentioned that should my Daughter be able to come home for Christmas, not only will Mum not get to see her because of the facilities rules, but then I cannot go in for another month after Daughter's visit ends.

Mum was very clear what she thought about all that. She said she cannot see the point of being alive if she cannot see her family.

So I know what her wishes are.

It is a very difficult situation but all it takes is 1 visitor to take covid into a care home and it could wipe out many elderly people.
The people that are moaning about it aren't the ones that would have to look after these people when they're extremely poorly. Carers would be risking their lives to look after the residents and try their best to make them comfortable.
I am a carer in a home and I also have a gp in a different home so I can see it from both views. Yes it's hard but it is keeping many elderly, vulnerable people safe and surely that has to take priority

And that's fine expat but she doesn't speak for the rest of the residents.

@TheFormidableMrsC

I cried at the news earlier where a woman was trying to speak to her elderly mum who had dementia over and iPad and mum was simply unable to engage and daughter was crying and it was on camera and it was just fucking awful.

That is sad, but also how every face to face visit with my GM went (she also had dementia). She had no clue who any of us were. I’m not sure it’s anything specific to the iPad, or Covid.

This is heartbreaking, That poor man and all others in that position. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have that choice to make as only child and parents both dead.
Not appropriate place for a rant but the way the elderly and vulnerable and those who care for them have been treated during this pandemic is a national disgrace.

But it’s not just the individual saying they’d happily get covid to se their family. Being a care home with carers, if that one elderly person willing to die gets it, they’re the one person who’s brought it in and gives it to the whole nursing home, who all die a horrible death. There is no good answer.

The notion that death is preferable for elderly people is the reason why so little care was taken in the early days to prevent covid running rampant through so many care homes.

The isolation is incredibly difficult for families and ways need to be found for people to safely be able to visit their relatives but safety must be the priority.

What’s the alternative though? Carers are doing their best to protect their clients and let them see their family in a safe manner. Just one family member with COVID could spread it throughout the home. The child in the picture could easily have picked it up at school and be asymptomatic.

I read a book years ago where someone said to an elderly person 'who'd want to live to be 100?' And they replied 'someone who is 99'

I've always remembered that. Just because you're old I assume you can still be scared to die an unpleasant death.

I work in the elderly care world and it’s in the homes anyway. I honestly feel a lounge area should be designated for one to one visits with PPE and social distancing to lower the risk.
No hugging or kissing but actual face to face comfortable visits mask or visor.
Some may choose not to have visits but most would.
Yes we are having weekly testing but staff test positive all the time they might have done 2 days work waiting for that positive result whilst positive and then family can’t come in! It’s all risk but I think in this case it’s gone too far to protect people for what just sitting in a lounge 8 hours of a day it’s not like they have years left to enjoy when this is all over.
Also a lot of our frail residents have had Covid and bounced back it’s not always a death sentence the risk/quality of life balance has gone out of kilter totally.

I’ve spoken to quite a few elderly people and they say they would rather see people then be imprisoned in isolation! I had a conversation with one elderly man and in his opinion everyone is too scared to go out. He wasn’t scared and was going out to the shops to get his own shopping.

Death absolutely is preferable to this as a pp noted.

Imagine being near the end of your life and having the government and your care home dictate the things that make your life worth living is now not allowed. You may have 2 years left to live and already nearly one year is wasted where you couldnt go outside or see your family. Its quality of life not quantity of life. Pointless dragging someones life on indefinitely whilst denying them their reasons for living.

Look at it thus way would you prefer to see them in the home with out restrictions and then infect your own family? Then that member passes it to another person ect and kills them or your loved one. Yes its hard yes its not right but its the only way to keep everyone else safe, other option look after them yourself and risk them that way

@pontypridd

Why are we doing this to our parents and loved ones?

Who wants to end their days in isolation, separated from their family? This is not life.

Death is preferable to this.

You might think so, but a lot of people would rather not infect their loved ones with an illness that kills them.

I don't believe children should be visiting the residents areas of the majority of care homes in any case, so my viewpoint may be clouding things but I actually think the care home in question has the balance about right. This is not a care home that has a complete ban on visitors, but rather a family that cannot understand that visiting has to be more limited than usual. The care home in question is allowing one adult visitor per resident which is a reasonable position that balances the need for infection control against the need to have contact with family.

It's very sad indeed but what is the answer to this? Shaniac, you can say it is pointless to drag out someone's life but then what you are doing is putting everyone in that care home in the same box labelled 'expendable' or pointless. Many of those people want to live and will live longer; is it up to us to say their lives do not matter? It's so much more complicated which is why emotive arguments like the OPs don't actually work in real life, sad though the picture is.

The irony is of course that many who are calling for lockdown to be lifted also tend towards the narrative of shielding the vulnerable, so in fact keeping people like this locked away for much longer so 'we can just get on with it.' is that ok?

It's just so much more nuanced than this is allowing for. It is all tragic and there is no easy answer