To be in tears over this?

[HumanFemale1]

This is so inhumane. What has been done to elderly during this time will stay with me forever.

Then if there was an outbreak in a nursing home everyone would be so angry saying how did this happen??

Can’t win really.

I won’t be flying home for Christmas as my gran lives with my parents - I couldn’t take the risk of coming home and possibly infecting her or my parents. It’s shit but hopefully will save her life and we can all meet again next year some time

I’d rather keep her safe tbh

It's not like this everywhere.

My dad is end of life with frailty and was in a care home for respite, admittedly in August.

We had to book an hour timeslot to see him, mask and sanitise, temp check and sign a track and trace form. They had a large gazebo set up outside for those who were able to get out of their rooms, and in the previous lockdown had facilitated window visits and full visits for those deemed to be desperately in need (ie an elderly gentleman with dementia who couldn't understand why his sister wasn't visiting and was becoming distressed).

They hadn't had any positive cases.

Your death @pontypridd? Or just other people's?

@Porcupineinwaiting - my death if I was as old as my Grandma or the man in the picture.

It’s shit but the only option would be to take him out and nurse him themselves but he looks like he needs a lot of care. The problem is how quickly it can spread in a care home, if they were to have grandkids visit it isn’t just grandpa who is taking a risk but every resident in the home.

I would actually go as far as saying people such as this woman who are unable to accept reasonable restrictions that balance the competing needs are making it harder for those with relatives in care homes that don't want to allow any level of visitation. It simply makes no sense to allow the inevitable additional risk from visitors if the level of visitation that can be allowed whilst maintaining an acceptable level of risk is not enough to keep the vast majority of families happy.

@Lucked

It’s shit but the only option would be to take him out and nurse him themselves but he looks like he needs a lot of care. The problem is how quickly it can spread in a care home, if they were to have grandkids visit it isn’t just grandpa who is taking a risk but every resident in the home.

I agree with this. So many people only thinking about themselves on this thread. Well I would rather die. What if Mary down the hall wouldn't? Do you get to take that away from her? It really isn't as simple a situation as some of you are making out.

I wish people would stop saying, death is preferable- no, if you were in that situation death would be preferable for you. There are many elderly people who want to live. My grandfather asked for us to visit and chat through his window, he wants to live a little longer to see my sibling get married, a cousin have a baby. He is in his 90's. My DM and DF were talking to him through his window and someone tried to take a pic, my DM approached them, they said its awful you have to do this I'm sure he would prefer to die. My DM wasn't very polite in explaining that it was my GFs choice and who did they think they were judging. They were very sheepish in their response.

Not all elderly want to die instead of shielding.

The trouble is the shared risk within the home. Maybe we need “open” care homes, that allowed visits from family, grandchildren etc, if you could persuade some staff to be mad enough to work in them. I’d be interested to see how many people, when faced with reasonable certainty their relative would catch it, and some real information about what that looks like, actually think it’s such a good idea. I’m sure some people still would, I’m also sure a lot of people say “I’d rather die than live like this” without really meaning a word of it.

I wonder whether the people who would rather die than live like that have any idea of what it would be like to die like that. Dying of Covid is not a fate that I would wish on my worst enemy.

@YellowPostItPad

We are doing it to protect them from COVID which can kill elderly people.

Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years.

Death is preferable to this.

Is it though?

I doubt my 87 yo mum would agree with that.

Would you rather live an indefinite amount of time locked inside with no contact with those you love?

My grandma was 99 when she died, living in a lovely care home pre Covid. But even then she was bored and frustrated locked away on her own with strangers.

She loved living but would have been miserable in these current times.

Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years.

Don't be obtuse.

Do you realise they don't get to die surrounded by their loved ones if they die of covid? No last, meaningful words or embraces. No bedside vigils. Just HCPs in a lot of PPE.

@mathanxiety

Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years.

Don't be obtuse.

Do you realise they don't get to die surrounded by their loved ones if they die of covid? No last, meaningful words or embraces. No bedside vigils. Just HCPs in a lot of PPE.

Sorry to break it to you but the majority of the people in the world is going to alone and suddenly, without getting to say goodbye to their loved ones.

Life isn't a hollywood movie where you know you're going to die 3 days before so you have time for goodbyes and meaningful deathbed conversations.

@mathanxiety

Yeah and we all know covid is the only thing that can kill the elderly and as long as people in care homes don't get covid, they will live another 25 years.

Don't be obtuse.

Do you realise they don't get to die surrounded by their loved ones if they die of covid? No last, meaningful words or embraces. No bedside vigils. Just HCPs in a lot of PPE.

They're not going to be surrounded by their loved ones if they die of anything else either.

My MIL is unlikely to last until we're allowed to visit her again. nothing to do with Covid. It's going to be heartbreaking, especially for my SIL, that she'll die without one of us holding her hand, and not having been visited for months and months.

I heard today of someone whose husband died of cancer in hospital, and who wasn't allowed to be with him as he died. Yet 20 minutes later she was allowed to sit with his body for a little while. WTF? What sort of logic was there to that?

Leaving aside the bigger question.

In this particular situation why don't they just reverse the arrangements?

Put Dad on the higher level and the visitors on the lower?

Bit of a hassle but not an unsolvable situation.

Life isn't a hollywood movie where you know you're going to die 3 days before so you have time for goodbyes and meaningful deathbed conversations.

Actually, for many it's not far off that. I and my daughters were lucky enough for it to be exactly like that when we nursed my late husband until he died at home. A good death is priceless. And if you get that amount of warning, I can't begin to imagine not being able to be with your spouse/parent while they go.

They have to protest the residents. Its cruel but has to be done until a vaccine is done. I have seen 4 covid deaths in the past few weeks all elderly when I worked in a nursing home. I'm in a different home now but something needs to be done. I feel so upset for family's who can't see there family in care homes.

That’s such a sad image. Truly heartbreaking.

I’m sorry to sound so ignorant, but can someone explain to me if families have a choice to take their elderly relatives out of care homes? Why are they in there? Is it because their families cannot care for them?Or is it because they have been forcibly put there by the NHS/social services?
Like I said I apologise if I sound ignorant, I don’t mean to. I don’t have anyone in my family or extended family that is in a care home. I honestly don’t know.

What do you suggest ? Children who are in school are allowed in and pass covid onto him and possibly other people's parents ?

I’m sorry to sound so ignorant, but can someone explain to me if families have a choice to take their elderly relatives out of care homes? Why are they in there? Is it because their families cannot care for them?Or is it because they have been forcibly put there by the NHS/social services?
Like I said I apologise if I sound ignorant, I don’t mean to. I don’t have anyone in my family or extended family that is in a care home. I honestly don’t know.

There can be many reasons. If social services decide the person needs a certain level of care that family are not/cannot reasonably give then they can be put into a home. Equally many people in care homes have a lot of issues that require constant care that not all families can provide so they put them into a home so they get the appropriate care, and then there are people who have no family or willing put themselves into homes. Thats why once a person is in a home its not always possible to take them out again as some people suggest.

When i worked in a home i worked specifically with dementia and sadly the residents families couldnt cope on their own anymore. An example was one resident whos sister wanted to care for her forever but once his dementia had got to the stage he was never sleeping and going out at 4am and she was so exhausted she couldn't do it anymore.

I'm afraid the practicalities of staying alive in a global pandemic trump the emotions of being separated from loved ones.

Nursing homes can't win. If they lose a few patients they're accused of not being Covid secure but at the same time family members are demanding entry and potentially bringing the virus with them, especially kids who are at school.

People saying death is better than not seeing family members for 9 months are literally pathetic. A lot of these people lived through a war, FFS. They know actual hardship.

No, it's not nice. Yes, it's necessary.

The facility where my mum lives was allowing outdoors visiting with masks and SD, but now that it's getting colder they're going to have to curtail it, I'm sure.

My mum has advanced dementia. She no longer really experiences happiness, she is just 'existing'. She doesn't know where she is or who we are. As a person of faith i believe it will be a blessing when she goes as I know she will be in a better place. So if Covid should take her, as long as she could be relatively comfortable and pass quickly, I could be at peace with it. But my peace with it doesn't override another resident's or their family's desire to keep their loved one safe.

There are other residents where she lives who do still know their families, who still experience happiness, who enjoy their day. It is not worth the risk to them to allow visitors simply because we, her family, cannot see my mum and because we, her family, would be at peace if she were to die.

The facility must keep all residents safe.

Yes. It's awful. People unable to see vulnerable or elderly relatives - or risk never ever seeing them again (because they died of Covid).

Meanwhile, New Zealand, Australia, the Isle of Man, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, much of Africa. All much more humane. They took effective action to contain Covid. People can live mostly normally there - including safely seeing friends and relatives.

@Heyahun exactly. It’s not just the residents it’s also the staff that will be at risk if they just allow visiting as normal. The staff also have loved ones too. Anybody who has worked in a nursing home knows how it is if someone is off so who will run the care home when all the staff are sick?

It’s a shit situation all round..