Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

In terms of actual evidence - I welcome more evidence, but it seems as if there is evidence which most people dispute as it does not fit into their anecdotal data. I go my worldwide data where the numbers point out to little evidence of primary children spreading the virus and mixed data on senior and I am definitely open to getting a clearer grasp on the numbers. I just am curious because the experience (i.e., anecdote) I have and my friends is very different from the posts here despite being in London, which should produce far worse numbers than a place like Cornwall.

@Mominatrix

In terms of actual evidence - I welcome more evidence, but it seems as if there is evidence which most people dispute as it does not fit into their anecdotal data. I go my worldwide data where the numbers point out to little evidence of primary children spreading the virus and mixed data on senior and I am definitely open to getting a clearer grasp on the numbers. I just am curious because the experience (i.e., anecdote) I have and my friends is very different from the posts here despite being in London, which should produce far worse numbers than a place like Cornwall.

ffs private schools are a world away from the average state school.

Good that SchoolsWeek did the maths. Over half a million kids at home not allowed to leave the house.

Absolute disgrace for these kids it really is and the media are a disgrace for ignoring it never mind the government.

I'm not going to name the schools, but it is a well known private school. It is not the only one to have this capacity.

mominatrix : my HUGE school has only (apparently) had 3 cases in children (lots of staff absence) but quite a lot of students SI because of family/friend/contacts. We ahve been unscathed relatively speaking.

This personal experience does not stop me form understanding and acknowledging the chaos elsewhere.

I don't understand why worldwide evidence (and London private school anecdata) holds more water to you than evidence from the UK!

Yes, a private school is not the average state school, but I have friends who have children at local state schools here in West London and they also have not experienced signifiant numbers or children of staff being affected.

Look at the attendance data, Mominatrix. Look at the infection rates in secondary school kids (the highest rate of infection in the country).

International data is useless here because we’re pretty much the only country denying there’s a problem with cramming classrooms full of kids with no mitigation measures.

Can you see how that might widen the disadvantage gap mominatrx?

I have and my friends is very different from the posts here despite being in London, which should produce far worse numbers than a place like Cornwall.

I teach in a school in London and have many many colleagues in other schools in London. We are producing bad/worrying numbers of children testing positive, children self isolating, children off ill, staff testing positive, staff self isolating, staff being off to parent their own children who are self isolating (me currently) and staff off ill.
Whole schools have closed in London (just not being reported)

Please open your eyes and ears to the evidence, particularly on this thread before your first post. It may not be being shouted from the roof of government and the main newspapers but it surely can be long before their hand is forced?

have you got a year 11 DC who has had to SI twice for a fortnight though mom? Sorry , don't normally refer to other threads but it seems relevant info here.

What evidence is needed to convince you there’s an issue, Mom if over half a million kids at home unable to leave the house isn’t enough?

@Mominatrix

Yes, a private school is not the average state school, but I have friends who have children at local state schools here in West London and they also have not experienced signifiant numbers or children of staff being affected.

My DH teachers in a GDST (private if you didn’t know what that meant) school in London. They are on their knees at the moment and having to beg part time teachers to work extra days to cover the staff absences and having to teach whole year groups at home. Next week, he will be teaching at home to be with our DD who is currently self isolating after a positive case in her class.

That ‘anecdotal’ enough for evidence?

*teaches

Aw OP, I was the boffin feedback-giver on the last thread - I’m sorry to have been moany!! Feel free to boffin if you like! But appreciate your openness to feedback, that is inclusive

But to explain, for me ‘boffin’ is a word found in The Sun and ropey tabloids. I am a social worker and have many times had conversations with parents about what their children need and the research that backs this up, to receive eye rolls and complaints that these ‘boffins’ don’t know what they are talking about. That’s literally the only context I ever come across boffin chat. So there ya go! It wasn’t personal. Continue to enjoy your mug.

Which london borough are you in Mominatrix? Are cases not rising in your area like they are in Surrey?. We'd only had a similar number of cases in our school as yours until this week. Similar in the school that's closed

And London HAS currently got significantly lower rates than many, many other parts of the country: namely the whole North, the whole of the Midlands and other places like Bristol.

No one is disputing that some DC are absent from school due to testing positive or self-isolation- 4% are. We are not seeing whole scale school closures like some are making out.

What I fail to see is how 100% or 50% of DC at home with schools closed would be better.

Long piece on schools on our local BBC news bulletin this evening (Look North). Concentrated on year 11 and the disadvantage that those in the North will have compared to those in the South if GCSEs are not cancelled, due to big differences in the amount of face to face teaching they have received.

This was his reply😊

Omg Emoji that would be amazing!

Yes - because he was unlucky to have been in the bubble with two of the 4 children..

we are in lockdown - if it were like the first one, more than half a million would be at home not being able to leave the house. Is that preferential to you? IF it is, then take your children out of school and homeschool them - it is an option. I personally believe that we are in a crap situation and grown up choices have to be make thinking about the opportunity cost to children to appease the fears of adults with incomplete data. All we can do is follow evidence. I am most alarmed by this thread because it is saying that data is being falsified based on lived experience and no real big picture evidence.

I am a scientist and a parent. I base my decisions on sending my children to school based on the best evidence I can find, and that evidence is exactly what I stated above. Is there a risk - of course. But what are the available options and consequences?

You’re out of date, Hake check the new and much worse figures out today.

I do worry though that the msm will spin it and the result will be more pressure on Heads to isolate even less kids...

because it is saying that data is being falsified based on lived experience

No. It is using data to say that the government narrative is false. Please retract that claim.

Bloody hell : Noble literally started with evidence! All you ahve provided is unrepresentative experience 9and as it turns out your DC has been quite heavily impacted!) and a reference to (but no link to) worldwide evidence. (recent please) Are you aware schools all over Europe are closing?

The schools attendance data is evidence!

Your job as a scientist does not trump the experience and insights of people actually at the chalkface. Why are people so dismissive of teachers' lived experiences??