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Has Covid-19 made you realise just how inherently selfish so many people are?

241 replies

Nicknamegoeshere · 11/11/2020 23:58

It has me.
The world is a mess and most people only really care about themselves and their families.
Fed up to the back teeth of people trying to justify why they can't possibly do X, Y, and or Z.
Just be honest and say "Because I don't really care about passing this virus on, I'm not bothered about those more vulnerable than myself."

OP posts:
PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 14:53

@RedToothBrush

Btw the dividing line between those who can afford and can't falls exactly in 2008. What happened then? can you remember?

Anyone over 40 is usually in a much better position because they were much more likely to have some financial security / bought a house / better job opportunities than those under 40.

Please. We've all experienced economic recessions and hardships. When I left college, interest rates on mortgages were 10-16 percent in the US. You think young people were buying houses then? And unlike those in the UK, I've always had to factor health insurance into my planning, either via employment or buying it on the open market. Sexism stymied my career in many ways back then and ageism, combined with a vastly larger pool of workers plus globalisation, curbs my job opportunities now. None of that is a good excuse for living above one's means.

Younger people today aren't facing anything worse than previous generations endured.

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 14:54

@MrsMomoa

Livelihoods and mental health would be far better off now if everyone would have adhered to stringent distancing and isolation six months ago. 😂

Funniest thing I've heard all year!

That you find this hilarious is all the proof the rest of us need. Thanks for underscoring my point.

MrsMomoa · 12/11/2020 15:03

PerveenMistry

Your delusional point?

amicissimma · 12/11/2020 15:04

"That you find this hilarious is all the proof the rest of us need. Thanks for underscoring my point."

Perhaps rather than making trite remarks which take the argument no further, you might address the questions I asked on this point upthread.

bathsh3ba · 12/11/2020 15:08

Not really. People in my community and that I have come across have been more altruistic than selfish. I'm sure there are selfish people around, but then there always are. I also suspect that different people will have different definitions of what 'selfish' means. I've heard the term hurled by people on both sides of the lockdown debate and it's certainly also true that we can't look after others if we entirely neglect to look after ourselves.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2020 15:16

The cost of living issue has fundamentally changed though.

We have friends who are in their 50s who have said they would not be able to move to the same area, in the same career if they had been ten years younger.

Thats nothing to do with how they spend their money. They have been through similar recessions to you as they are similar in age. And they STILL see the problem with the housing market.

I ran through the figures with my local councillor to demonstrate just how bad the problem was. They have been here for 40 years. They hadn't realised the issue was about affordability of housing to the degree to which its a problem. The way that lenders have changed their lending criteria has had a massive impact too. They were shocked at how bad it was when you put it onto paper. They were aware there was a problem, but hasn't realised HOW much of a problem until it was put in front of them.

This is been recognised by numerous agencies, studies and government. This isn't just me making this up.

In 1997 the average house cost 3.55 times the average median local wage.

In 2017 that ration had risen to 7.8 times the average local wage.

This pattern isn't consistant across the country. There are areas where this ratio is much, much higher.

Taking one authority at random: South Oxfordshire. In 1997 it was 5.3, but by 2017 it was 11.9.

Given that a standard mortgage lender works on a 3.5 multipler this is something of a problem. Yes you can get higher multipers but you have to have exceptional credit and thats still taking a bloody huge risk and it will cost you more in the long run to do too.

Not only this, but the affordability of new housing is considerably worse: New homes typically cost 9.7 times wages, whereas existing homes cost 7.6 times full-time pay. Which doesn't exactly suggest that planning and schemes like help to buy are really resolving very much at all. Indeed it looks a lot like developers are lining their pockets and not building the type of housing stock thats really needed - four bed executive houses are much more typical than 2 bed starter homes.

And given the problem of extending your mortgage, thats also lending itself to encourage people to extend their existing homes thus also reducing the housing stock of smaller homes (and pushing their price up too in the process).

The ONS report which did the figures stated that: ‘Housing affordability has worsened significantly in 69 local authorities in England and Wales over the last five years, with over three-quarters of these being in London, the South East and the East.’

You also can't just tell people to move elsewhere cheaper. As we've seen during the pandemic, we kind of need nurses everywhere... and if they have huge tiring daily commutes this doesn't exactly help us.

Also....

Younger people will end up putting more into the tax system than their older counter parts. Those who are baby boomers are net beneficaries which slides down in scale to young people who over the course of their life time will be net contributers, because of how the demographics stack...

Housing ownership has declined in younger age groups as housing affordability has got worse. This has been studied and there are government reports on this.

But you know, you obviously know better...

"Blah, blah, blah, young people should just save harder, and they are no better or worse off than people in previously generations..."

.... and your evidence for this is?

So sick of this opinioned bullshit.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2020 15:19

@MrsMomoa

PerveenMistry

Your delusional point?

Shall we talk about how you manage to adhere to strict isolation if your job doesn't allow and how those on low and insecure incomes are least able to do this.

Perhaps they should just have saved their other money and bought a house in a nicer area and got a better job...

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 15:30

"Perhaps they should just have saved their other money and bought a house in a nicer area and got a better job..."

Worked for me. Of course, I didn't buy a house till i was nearly 40 and had worked and saved for more than 20 years. And paid for a graduate degree. And paid off my car, a no-frills Ford Escort I drove for 16 years. Paid cash for the entire amount of my next car, though.

Bearing down on savings in one's 20s & 30s instead of indulging oneself can reap immense rewards and financial security, at any income level. I know people with six figure income who save nothing, and people on minimum wage with comfortable nest eggs and nice homes. It's a mindset.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2020 15:42

You do realise thats quote from the modern Marie-Antoinette, landed gentry Jacob Rees-Mogg don't you?

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2020 15:44

Strangely enough i have a similar mindset.

And one of my 50year old mates is the same. Tightest arse ive ever met.

Still agrees he couldn't have bought a house in the same area if he was 10 years younger...

FractionalGains · 12/11/2020 15:45

perveenmistry

Do you have children? Very relevant as a lot of the stuff you’ve done will be harder if you are, say, a single parent.

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 15:53

@FractionalGains

perveenmistry

Do you have children? Very relevant as a lot of the stuff you’ve done will be harder if you are, say, a single parent.

Quite frankly I was prudent enough to strenuously avoid becoming a single parent, well aware that it's quite often a one-way ticket to lifelong financial failure. Not interested in navigating that mess.
FractionalGains · 12/11/2020 15:55

Ah so single parents should have been more prudent. Got it.

You clearly have no idea of the difficulties and disadvantages other people face.

Walkaround · 12/11/2020 16:01

@PerveenMistry - the only way to guarantee not becoming a single parent is not to become a parent at all.

FractionalGains · 12/11/2020 16:06

[quote Walkaround]@PerveenMistry - the only way to guarantee not becoming a single parent is not to become a parent at all.[/quote]
People shouldn’t really become parents at all until they’re 55, paid their house off and saved a years worth of salary in case of a pandemic.

frozendaisy · 12/11/2020 16:20

At least the children are young enough to get trained in a profession with which they can move abroad to a more affordable country without the obsession with home ownership.

That's what we are advising ours. South-west coast of Canada anyone? Grin

BloomShine · 12/11/2020 16:43

@BloomShine it's tricky when the vulnerable are also NHS, teachers, paramedics. If they all completely shield again then a lot of places are short staffed. Plus some can't or won't shield as only get SSP sad

I agree but if the vulnerable don't want to shield as they don't want to lose the bulk of their wages how is it fair for the healthy to lose theirs to protect the vulnerable? It is all wrong.

If we allowed all businesses to trade we could divert the billions spent paying healthy people to sit at home to the vulnerable so they wouldn't have to be on SSP.

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 16:45

[quote Walkaround]@PerveenMistry - the only way to guarantee not becoming a single parent is not to become a parent at all.[/quote]

But there's a vast difference between reproducing willy-nilly while young & unprepared, and making a measured, judicious choice of coparent when one is more mature, has a stable livelihood, emergency funds in place. Then one is far more in control of the outcome.

It really is possible to proactively make life choices that lead to more security rather than less. We aren't hapless victims.

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2020 16:53

But there's a vast difference between reproducing willy-nilly while young & unprepared, and making a measured, judicious choice of coparent when one is more mature, has a stable livelihood, emergency funds in place. Then one is far more in control of the outcome.

It really is possible to proactively make life choices that lead to more security rather than less. We aren't hapless victims.

I'll remind the guy i know who built up his business, bought a million pound house had two kids and has now found he has a degenerative terminal illness, his business is completely bankrupt and hes going to lose his house of your infinite wisdom.

Sure he will agree.

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 16:59

@RedToothBrush

But there's a vast difference between reproducing willy-nilly while young & unprepared, and making a measured, judicious choice of coparent when one is more mature, has a stable livelihood, emergency funds in place. Then one is far more in control of the outcome.

It really is possible to proactively make life choices that lead to more security rather than less. We aren't hapless victims.

I'll remind the guy i know who built up his business, bought a million pound house had two kids and has now found he has a degenerative terminal illness, his business is completely bankrupt and hes going to lose his house of your infinite wisdom.

Sure he will agree.

Meh. This isn't about terminal illness. It's about delaying gratification so that one is prepared for job loss and economic downturn.

Burpeesshmurpees · 12/11/2020 17:13

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

SheepandCow · 12/11/2020 17:16

Arguably the very worse off are those aged 40-50.

Certainly wrt that most basic of life's essentials - a stable roof over your head.

It's not true that everyone over 40 has stable housing. They are the first generation to have really been hit by the housing crisis. Those on low incomes and/or the disabled were overlooked.

It's a split in half generation. Some got on the property ladder and others got social housing - but many more missed out. Especially those on lower incomes and/or disabilities. Londoners - those born and bred there, with family and support networks - suffered the most.

Then there's relationship breakdowns.

The fastest growing age group of private renters are 40+.

Unlike younger people, the over 40s have no time to change their lot. Much less chance of getting a mortgage at their age - and no taxpayer funded help to buy for over 40s, yet also little chance of social housing.

They also face age discrimination in the workplace. Middle-aged - even from mid 40s, and certainly over 50s, struggle the most long-term to find jobs after redundancy. Employers favour younger (cheaper) employees.

40-50 age group have rent or mortgage to pay and children to feed and look after (a struggle for those facing redundancy) and elderly parents to care for.

Then, just to add to their problems, the risk of serious illness or death from Covid starts to jump from 45. But the vaccine is initially cut off at 50.

Then there's Long Covid. Especially a risk for middle-aged women.

MercyBooth · 12/11/2020 17:19

@RegularHumanBartender Piers Morgan has really pissed me off
www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/tv/gmb-piers-morgan-christmas-coronavirus-18968452

Saying people may need to miss Christmas with their families this year for the good of the country. but he was out at restaurants during the summer and went on holiday. So he got his. and during the first lockdown apparently ate a lot of takeaways, (who does he think cooks them and brings them to him)

Hes been calling for the politcians to come on GMB and they have been refusing for many months which they shouldnt be allowed to do BUT was he calling for this for months when many vulnerable/ ill/ disabled people were dying after having their disability benefits cut. NO!

A prime example of what i posted upthread.

This time last year people didnt want socialism Now they seem to want a kind of communism (im referring to people being unable to buy "non essentials" from a supermarket so its fair on the businesses that have been forced to close.

SheepandCow · 12/11/2020 17:24

Also if we're going to compare the housing situation of the past, we must remember all those who weren't in stable middle-class situations

Rachman landlords weren't a myth. Many lived in slum housing with landlords like him who beat you or your husband up if he wanted you out (and they largely got away with it).

Women would often lose their children if they became homeless and/or a single mum.

Marital rape was legal.

Women had few employment rights.

Racism and homophobia were rife (and accepted).

Times were very tough for many. Those who did ok do not represent all of their generation.

PerveenMistry · 12/11/2020 17:25

@Burpeesshmurpees

When I left college, interest rates on mortgages were 10-16 percent in the US You know it's funny but I kind of figured that was your background. How are you feeling after spiritual leader lost the election?
Feeling wonderful. I loathe trump with every molecule of my being. Donated $$$ to Biden/Harris and to nine Democratic senate candidates, most of whom who lost sadly. Participated in various get out the vote efforts. Drank Moet & Chandon on Saturday.