Why doesn’t China have a second wave?

[Custardcream67]

China had the initial wave of infections early 2020 then hardly any cases since. Their population is much bigger than UK. How can they have it so under control. Seems suspicious to me.

@TruckinRight
Indeed! Not sure why I bother. These threads always go the same way and inevitably result in comments about boiling dogs, but I asked for those to be deleted.

Because they do what they're told basically.

Authoritarianism undoubtedly plays it's part and we should be careful about what we wish for when saying we want a population that obeys government rules.

However, strictly enforced quarantine clearly is crucial as shown in several countries.

As is previous experience of infection diseases Sars, Mers etc. I seem to remet reading something about Canada's response being influenced by having been the only non-Asian country to have had a major Sars outbreak.

Functional test and trace and effective science education are absolutely essential
Most Asian countries seem to have that sorted. Similar has also been seen in a number of African countries (even allowing for climate and remote communities that have remained unaffected). They are sadly experienced with infectious outbreaks in a way Europe isn't (Ebola, HIV, Polio, TB etc). They also have to have strong community health network to get information out about diseases, vaccinations etc. So they have been able to divert polio community educators (for example) to covid education. And they have experience of test, trace and isolation.

We are lucky in the UK and various other countries to have gone a long time without a major infectious disease outbreak. Unfortunately it means the infrastructure and awareness isn't there to deal with it when one occurs.

(But please don't wish for authoritarian rule!)

And in a pandemic don’t we want people to follow the rules?

Everyone is saying China did a great job because the government controlled people better. Is this what you actually want? Whilst I don't believe our government are handling it well I would not want to live the way the Chinese people do, every aspect of their lives controlled from their internet access to how many children they can have.

@sergeilavrov

Lots of non-democracies have had only one wave, or two waves due to air travel and movement but all with low numbers of deaths. Simply, people are able and willing to access testing, follow the rules, and the government able to track and enforce them. It is much safer. I’ve now had a vaccine, so I won’t have to isolate every time I fly and I will get to see my children.

I have to keep telling myself the people on MN boasting about not following the rules are probably just talking about that, but I know from family that people don’t follow rules. It puts me off returning to the U.K. when we become empty nesters

Where do you live sergeilavrov? I didn't think any countries had a vaccine.

In relation to no second wave in China. We don't know for sure when their 1st wave started so maybe they did have a second one?

Mostly I think it's because they had a much stricter lockdown and they actually abided by it.
I don't doubt that there may have been some inhumane actions as seen by the west.
If it meant being back to normal now I would have welcomed a stricter lockdown.

If it is true that the strains have mutated in western Europe though would this have made a difference? I think a couple of the major failings in the UK were 1) letting Cheltenham go ahead & 2) not enforcing quarantine for air passengers / "closing" the borders for all but essential travel.

Where do you live sergeilavrov?
I didn't think any countries had a vaccine.

Russia has a vaccine.

@TruckinRight oh didn’t you know? You can’t be racist to East Asians. It’s okay to apply horrific stereotypes and sweeping statements across China (sarcasm).

It’s horrific that MN is allowing racism on this website. There has always been racism towards East Asians in Western countries but it’s only worsened the past few months. No repercussions towards physically and verbally (in person or on the Internet) attacking East Asian people

Or perhaps you could consider why you identified yourself as a target of my comment.

Obviously because I had just posted and been criticised by your friend ShanghaiDiva. If we are unable to criticise a country such as China, with its revolting record on human rights, animal rights, suppression of press freedom (Reporters Without Borders ranks them 177 out of 180 in the world on press freedom), as well as the fact that we know they stopped Dr Li Wenliang from speaking about his discovery of covid back in early Dec 2019 - if you call such criticism 'xenophobia', well that is simply pathetic and entirely unjustified, and is really a desperate attempt to discredit highly justified criticism. I will not stand by and let such horrific practices occur unchecked out of fear of being called names by the likes of you.

it is not xenophobic to have views on other countries especially one with such a low disregard for Human Rights.
I think China has infiltrated Mumsnet and using our rules of tolerance against us.

Our country is too lax though. It will not go well if people don't stop being so selfish

It is not that they controlled people better: they took more effective action. They shut the border and quarantined arrivals. We did not.
Look at Australia : similar approach to China. Compare australia’s case numbers with ours...

I look at that picture of your husband and think it is awful and it puts a chill down my spine and I am so glad not to live in a country where that is forced upon it’s people but that is obviously not the way the Chinese view it.

I'm as great a believer in good old English liberties as the next woman, but I didn't see anything sinister in that photo - t was common sense: @ShanghaiDiva 's DH was protecting others & himself from virus spread.

I think individual freedom needs to be balanced with responsibility.

The great English liberal, John Stuart Mill, wrote about freedoms, that were two kinds of freedom:

the freedom to
the freedom from

We can only be free to go about our daily life & earn our livings, is if we are free from a potentially deadly virus.

@ShanghaiDiva

And in a pandemic don’t we want people to follow the rules?

I would say yes we do but not at the expense of our freedom. I think we had v high rule compliance in March/ April in theUK when we were also scared and had little knowledge of the virus and no collective knowledge / memory about what to do in a pandemic. I think I saw a graph to say highest in Europe ( go us )but I also think now we know a lot more and the virus is deadly but not as deadly as first feared and so I do not think we need harsh/ strict/ authoritarian response any longer and I think giving up our freedoms is now a bigger potential threat than the virus. Luckily we have a slightly incompetent gov in charge and a libertarian for a PM so this is unlikely to happen but could easily in the future with a different type of government/ pm and those that want harsher / stricter rules should be careful what they wish for. I myself wear a mask and follow the rules but I accept the argument from those that don’t and I am proud the U.K. has a long tradition of protest and not allowing governments (or monarchies back in the day) to get too powerful ( same as the french, and the Scots too for that matter)

China has infiltrated mumsnet!
Funniest thing I have read today!

@Jakobabear

Everyone is saying China did a great job because the government controlled people better. Is this what you actually want? Whilst I don't believe our government are handling it well I would not want to live the way the Chinese people do, every aspect of their lives controlled from their internet access to how many children they can have.

want? no.

In despair that locals are so selfish and so stupid they refuse to follow any guidelines let alone common sense? Yes.

we have a chance not to be controlled by our government... that's going super well. People are too childish and too precious to be trusted, that's the very sad truth.

There has been enough examples in the press of genuine cases when ONE person caused a huge outbreak, but still, idiots do not care.

think I saw a graph to say highest in Europe ( go us grin )but I also think now we know a lot more and the virus is deadly but not as deadly as first feared and so I do not think we need harsh/ strict/ authoritarian response any longer and I think giving up our freedoms is now a bigger potential threat than the virus.

We're at a point where if the numbers keep tracking as they are we will have no beds to admit any patients to, and that includes the surge capacity, by the start of December. We know some more about the virus and it isn't as deadly as first thought, but we are a long way from not needing restrictive measures.

I think we probably need to have a nationwide conversation about what we are willing to do and what the consequences of not doing it are. We might not want mandatory quarantining, but after how many cycles of lockdown & release do we decide that it might be a good idea. Because apart from a lot of people dying in the 3rd, 4th, 5th waves, lockdowns themselves aren't without economic & health implications.

I am not saying we do not need restrictions, we do and we have restrictions. My point is, the restrictions we have are enough ( some would say too much particularly those that may lose their livelihoods and I have sympathy with that argument).
I would hate to see forced quarantine, closed borders, mandatory hazmat suits. I think it is unnecessary now knowing what we know about the virus.
I am also an optimist about the vaccine and I think we have given up enough freedoms and I have no wish to see us ( as a society) give up any more.

People just follow the rules

^

This.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay, the problem with the lack of quarantining is that once the infection is seeded throughout communities, it’s extremely difficult to get rid of it. No amount of lockdown will prevent infections when there are millions of asymptomatic cases circulating.

@sashagabadon

I am not saying we do not need restrictions, we do and we have restrictions. My point is, the restrictions we have are enough ( some would say too much particularly those that may lose their livelihoods and I have sympathy with that argument). I would hate to see forced quarantine, closed borders, mandatory hazmat suits. I think it is unnecessary now knowing what we know about the virus. I am also an optimist about the vaccine and I think we have given up enough freedoms and I have no wish to see us ( as a society) give up any more.

I really don’t understand this viewpoint. The restrictions are self evidently not enough, given that the virus is freely circulating and 100,000 more people are catching it every day. In what way do you think the restrictions are enough?

Yes, clearly they are not enough as evidenced by current cases!

China locked down hard and has now seen a 6% increase in gdp.
Are restrictions were not enough and our economy is also suffering and this will get worse next year imo.

My point is, the restrictions we have are enough

Except they aren't, because here we are returning to lock down.

I would hate to see forced quarantine

But this is the strategy that has worked in countries like New Zealand. There is no point in a track and trace system if you don't also enforce some kind of quarantine.

I think we probably need to have a nationwide conversation about what we are willing to do and what the consequences of not doing it are. We might not want mandatory quarantining, but after how many cycles of lockdown & release do we decide that it might be a good idea. Because apart from a lot of people dying in the 3rd, 4th, 5th waves, lockdowns themselves aren't without economic & health implications

No we do not! we do not have the time to have a conversation about a virus that is here and right now!
We need leadership and that, i'm afraid is sadly lacking and why we will be in/out of lockdown for many months to come.

@merrymouse

My point is, the restrictions we have are enough

Except they aren't, because here we are returning to lock down.

I would hate to see forced quarantine

But this is the strategy that has worked in countries like New Zealand. There is no point in a track and trace system if you don't also enforce some kind of quarantine.

But it is a balance. Covid is endemic now in Europe. We cannot eliminate it, that ship has sailed so we have balance restrictions on us and our freedoms with having a functioning economy hence why I think restrictions are enough and I would not like to see more. There are loads of threads already on Mumsnet about the harms of lockdown, on jobs , educations, domestic violence rates etc etc. It is not all about the virus now, other things cause harm and matter too. I do not want to see any more restrictions ( I accept the English lockdown in November) but I would not like to see anything else restricting our freedoms and rights. I accept others feel differently.