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Why doesn’t China have a second wave?

332 replies

Custardcream67 · 01/11/2020 13:41

China had the initial wave of infections early 2020 then hardly any cases since. Their population is much bigger than UK. How can they have it so under control. Seems suspicious to me.

OP posts:
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justasking111 · 01/11/2020 15:27

@ShanghaiDiva

Controls definitely became stricter over the time I was living there, but with a VPN you have access to uk media, Facebook, google etc.
I worry about by bro. he does have a VPN but is still uber careful on social media. We get a different story when he is at home. But he still believes China handled this better than us, even though he lives 2k kilometres from Wuhan, so does not know quite what went on there.
ShanghaiDiva · 01/11/2020 15:27

@JinglingHellsBells
Yes, at times all VPNs will stop working eg on the run up to CCP conferences etc.

MrsAvocet · 01/11/2020 15:29

There have definitely been outbreaks in China since the initial wave. My husband does business with some Chinese companies and according to those he speaks to there have been local peaks of infection in cities where they live and work. But they seem to have been contained and controlled rather than becoming another huge outbreak. I don't know how they've done it - probably by measures that would be draconian by western standards - as DH gets very limited info from his contacts. As others have said, its difficult to know exactly what is going on in China and its so huge that I imagine people in one part of the country don't even know what us going on in other parts.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/11/2020 15:31

Also, if that are soo good at controlling COVID now, why didn’t they prevent it from spreading in the early days? They could have contained it within China and they didn’t.

ShanghaiDiva · 01/11/2020 15:32

@justasking111
I think it’s wise to be cautious and also there is an element of respect too. Your dB chose to live in China, as did I, and I would not wish to potentially offend any of my Chinese friends by being overly critical of their country.

lubeybooby · 01/11/2020 15:36

Did you not read that post from the British woman living in China about how strict they had been? Back when we had only just gone into first lockdown..

I saved the wording but don't have the link, sorry

""I’ve now been in isolation for two months in China. It may surprise you to learn that I am not in Wuhan, or even Hubei Province, but Wuxi, a city in Jiangsu, over 700 Km away from the epicenter of the virus.
The impression created in the Western media is that by asking the residents of one city to self-isolate, China managed to bring the outbreak under control. It’s a dangerous misconception leading to a cavalier attitude and the false assumption that putting London in lockdown would somehow make things right.The truth is that China’s measures went far beyond anything imaginable in Western cultures and extended, at the worst of the epidemic, from Guangdong Province in the South to beyond Beijing in the North.
News of the virus made little impact outside of Hubei until shortly before Chinese New Year. The holiday is a time of mass migration when workers in the cities generally return to their hometowns to visit family. Faced with the prospect of millions of people moving around the country and potentially spreading the virus further, on January 23rd we went into official lockdown.
Initially we were told that the week-long New Year Holiday would be extended by a few days but as time passed and schools were closed indefinitely, we realized that we were in for the long haul. Today, two months later, some of the stricter controls here are starting to be relaxed but we are still in lockdown mode. Our business, a restaurant is still closed by order and this will not be reviewed until April 1st at the earliest. There is no confirmed date for schools reopening and movement is still highly restricted.
Overnight, the security guards at the gate of our complex were equipped with thermometers and our temperatures were taken each time we passed. Registering an elevated temperature carried a constant fear of being reported to the authorities and quarantined. We were fortunate in being allowed relatively unrestricted access to and from our home but for many of our friends, only one person per apartment was allowed out to buy supplies every two or three days. No deliveries were allowed into the complex and a makeshift collection point was set up at the gates. No visitors were allowed and social gatherings prohibited. All cars were stopped on roads and highways as police conducted detailed questioning about recent movements and checked temperatures. Long distance travel between provinces was either suspended or reduced.
The Chinese mobilized technology to establish highly sophisticated movement and contact tracing. There is almost universal usage of WeChat (social media) and AliPay (payment system) here so everyone was required to register and give a detailed description of their current location and recent travel history. Based on this we received a QR code and our estimated risk-level. We needed to scan this to gain access to a supermarket or public building. As a result, I have friends who received a knock on their doors and were taken into official quarantine for two weeks because someone on their incoming flight or in the supermarket at the same time had tested positive for the virus. A friend has just returned from Europe (a day before mandatory quarantine for returning European travellers was imposed) and is now in compulsory lockdown in her apartment. Movement is monitored by app; the complex management has electronically sealed her windows and doors. Trapped with 4 children and with her husband who had not travelled moving into a hotel to avoid quarantine, this is unbelievably hard to navigate in good spirits but she understands, as do we all, that it’s necessary. If it all sounds very 1984, that’s because it is! But ultimately this testing, contact tracing, and shutting down chains of transmission, is what stopped the virus from spreading.
In spite of this use of technology, one hangover from the early days of the Mao era is the habit of physically pasting notices and public announcements onto the doors of homes. As such we learned within hours of the lockdown that all weddings and funerals (or at least attendance at funerals) were to be cancelled, the wearing of protective masks was compulsory and that financial incentives would be offered to those who reported undocumented travellers from Hubei province. There has been much discussion about the efficiency of using surgical masks but one thing is for certain, the physical act of having to put on a mask, wearing it and seeing others do so, focuses the mind! It is impossible to “forget” that there is an epidemic. It never feels ok to drop your guard and as such, remembering to wash your hands thoroughly and use sanitizer and wipes becomes second nature. That small strip of surgical mask becomes a constant reminder of potential danger and the need to protect yourself and those around you.
Pharmacies were immediately prohibited from selling any pain/fever/symptom relief medication; the logic being that self-medication was detrimental to the public good and that anyone displaying symptoms should be under the care of the medical profession, allowing cases to be documented and all contacts traced. This caused us endless problems as our daughter is currently staying with us. She is an AS sufferer who came from the UK for the holidays and has since been trapped! As she is on a schedule of TNF inhibitors she is immune-compromised and as such is in a high-risk category. Flying (on the one or two routes still open) was too risky. Now that the danger is subsiding at this end, flying back into an uncertain situation in the UK seems equally challenging. We found extraordinary generosity from friends who shared what medical supplies they had. In Wuhan, HIV patients, who are often vilified and ostracized in society, willingly donated their meds to trial therapies in an act of selfless compassion that was truly humbling.
Regardless of politics or social conditioning, what we have witnessed from the Chinese people in the past two months has really been the best of humanity. There was some anxiety regarding sourcing of masks (and price gouging until the government announced penalties for anyone attempting to) but this was quite simply a result of over a billion people suddenly needing them! Other than that, we have been limited to using three small shops within walking distance but have never experienced shortages or lack of availability of the basics – even toilet paper! There has always been fresh fruit and veg – maybe not what we would like but enough to keep us healthy! Yes admittedly, it helps that I am in lockdown with a Michelin starred chef who can turn a lentil, a chickpea and a bean into a feast, but basically this was down to the Chinese people who acted responsibly and were satisfied with “enough” rather than stock-piling or hoarding. My social media contacts have been uplifting and informative and there has generally been a phenomenal spirit of community and pulling together as a society in the fight against the virus. The cynical would call this propaganda, and much of it was certainly State driven or sanctioned but on a personal level, it’s far better for mental health than the venomous pit of Facebook conspiracy theories and rumours.
Without doubt, the past two months have been devastating; the business that we have run for 12 years is decimated and will never recover. We’ve been isolated, cut off from the medical care that two of we three desperately need and our daughter has faced the uncertainty of being isolated here and anxious about her friends and boyfriend in the UK. Our present has been put on indefinite hold and our future looks increasingly uncertain but that’s what it took to bring this virus under control and save lives.
We rightly value the freedoms that Western democracies afford us and so many of the measures adopted in China will be impossible to implement. But if we cherish that freedom we also have to accept that it is a social contract and only functions if we individually and as a society contribute positively and act responsibly.
To those expressing anger, hatred or even violence against others, please think about what entire nations have endured to halt the spread of this virus and instead of negativity, be thankful.
To those downplaying the seriousness of this virus and posting on internet boards about their toddler really needing his play date, asking if the supermarket manager will realize they are a special case and allow them to buy six packs of dried pasta, or saying that their parents cannot do without seeing their grandchildren because they really love them, please define “love”. Is it tonight’s dinner or tomorrow’s visit, or is it about doing whatever it takes to keep our loved ones safe, no matter the personal cost"

ShanghaiDiva · 01/11/2020 15:37

@MrsAvocet
I don’t think the second spikes in China have been controlled in a draconian manner, rather through mass testing. There was a case where I lived where a person tested positive and had had contact with school children as a sports coach: all kids at the school my dcs used to attend had to be tested whether or not they had been in direct contact with this coach.

Pinkyxx · 01/11/2020 15:37

I work with a lot of people in China. There have been cases, and local outbreaks but they are contained with draconian measures. The government has no problem imposing on their citizens and public are far more inclined to follow the rules.

Where they made a huge mistake was not making covid public sooner, so that border controls etc could have prevented the spread to the rest of the world..

cyclingmad · 01/11/2020 15:47

I don't know why but it a country that is trialling a social credit system that is so far beyond anything I can't actually believe anyone would want it...

Liu Hu is a journalist in China, writing about censorship and government corruption. Because of his work, Liu has been arrested and fined — and blacklisted. Liu found he was named on a List of Dishonest Persons Subject to Enforcement by the Supreme People's Court as "not qualified" to buy a plane ticket, and banned from travelling some train lines, buying property, or taking out a loan.

"There was no file, no police warrant, no official advance notification. They just cut me off from the things I was once entitled to," he told The Globe and Mail. "What's really scary is there's nothing you can do about it. You can report to no one. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere."

2020iscancelled · 01/11/2020 15:54

What I love about MN is that there are several first hand accounts from China on this thread....

But people are still posting their theories on welded doors, repressed media, human rights violations.....

China’s track record is neither here nor there when you are asking the question of HOW they are managing it

THEY TEST 9 MILLION PEOPLE IN A WEEK

That’s the primary reason

We can’t rest even a tiny % of that. It’s an absolute scandal how poor our testing ability is

Tyzz · 01/11/2020 15:57

In China everyone who was infected had to go to hospital. Those hospitals they built in seven days were not to house the very sick but to quarantine all cases.
People were dragged out of their houses by force to be taken to hospital / quarantine. These were people who had been identified as contacts by their test and trace.

A less brutal enforcement here might have worked. Quarantine centres (hotels?)where food and medical help was provided.
Compulsory testing.

mayflowerapplepie · 01/11/2020 15:57

It is possible for two truths to co-exist. China is absolutely guilty of hideous human rights abuses but it also managed the pandemic very well with strict quarantine. These can both happen at the same time.
Australia has similar “brutal” quarantine and a similar outcome where (apart from the last few weeks in Melbourne) we have been living fairly normally. It is the price you pay. We are all willing to take a couple of weeks stuck in a hotel room to have a normal life when we get out. The government is strict and there are large penalties for breaking the law but it means effective control. A lot less whinging about holidays...

China takes the “greater good” approach. It may have involved sacrificing some people who were cut off from supplies etc in the beginning but actually LESS people died overall than would have done if they had been relaxed

ktp100 · 01/11/2020 15:58

Chinese people DO WHAT THEY'RE FUCKING TOLD!!

And if they didn't they got a good kicking and were dragged off to a detention centre.

People are too spoiled and selfish to do lockdown properly here.

cyclingmad · 01/11/2020 16:00

If only China takes the “greater good” approach applied to pollution and looking after the planet. Hmm

justasking111 · 01/11/2020 16:01

@lubeybooby the piece you described is how my brother found it, QR code to enter any shop, pharmacy, locked down for two months even though he was 2k kilometres from Wuhan. China saw it as a collective effort that everyone was expected to work with.

Funny story my DB flew out to China Shanghai to be with and marry his fiancee. After one night in her flat there was a knock on the door a group he described as the village committee asked if she was his wife, he said no. the visitors said that he had to move out until they were married. So quaint for a nation that does not officially believe in god and no sex before marriage. He did move out, no choice, but married her in double quick time. This was less than twenty years ago.

BlackForestCake · 01/11/2020 16:02

Do people really want to live like China and think that living under a totalitarian regime is a good thing,

No, they want a tracking and testing regime that works.

If the CCP had put someone in charge of dealing with the pandemic and it turned out he had funneled billions of yuan to a school chum for a system that didn't work, he would have been shot.

feelingverylazytoday · 01/11/2020 16:03

@2020iscancelled

What I love about MN is that there are several first hand accounts from China on this thread....

But people are still posting their theories on welded doors, repressed media, human rights violations.....

China’s track record is neither here nor there when you are asking the question of HOW they are managing it

THEY TEST 9 MILLION PEOPLE IN A WEEK

That’s the primary reason

We can’t rest even a tiny % of that. It’s an absolute scandal how poor our testing ability is

Have you checked the figures lately? We're
mumwon · 01/11/2020 16:03

From memory there was an outbreak in two of the states nearest N Korea (who denied having it) & they were shut down also the area that the native ethnic Muslims had an outbreak recently
people need internal passports to move from villages/country into the major cities. There have been until recently v strict birth controls & local "bare foot doctors" who inspect & check families lives etc
This kind of control means they are able to move family members out of their homes if they were suspected covid & it was reported earlier in the year they weren't actually moved into hospitals but a sort of waiting area. These restrictions may well have worked in China for control of the virus but there is no way to know the true cost to the individual.
I am an avid reader of several newspapers (not DM, Sun or Mirror though!) as well as a module based on life in China.

feelingverylazytoday · 01/11/2020 16:05

We're testing between 300- 400, 000 tests a day, on a population of 67 million. Not exactly a tiny % or a disgrace.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/11/2020 16:05

But people are still posting their theories on welded doors, repressed media, human rights violations.....

Do you really think that controls over the media and human rights violations are just theories someone on MN has come up with?

justasking111 · 01/11/2020 16:06

Comparing life in China to life here is like comparing apples to oranges. They and we live as well as we can.

sashagabadon · 01/11/2020 16:06

@2020iscancelled

What I love about MN is that there are several first hand accounts from China on this thread....

But people are still posting their theories on welded doors, repressed media, human rights violations.....

China’s track record is neither here nor there when you are asking the question of HOW they are managing it

THEY TEST 9 MILLION PEOPLE IN A WEEK

That’s the primary reason

We can’t rest even a tiny % of that. It’s an absolute scandal how poor our testing ability is

Our testing is more than that per head of population though. We seem to be doing 250,000 to 300,000 per day with capacity for more, but let’s say 250000 x 7 that is 1 million 750000 tests a week for a population of 66 million. China’s population is 1.6 billion isn’t it? so 9 million a week seems a relatively small amount??
LucillevsLowkee · 01/11/2020 16:07

@AllPlayedOut

No I don't agree. In spite of all the furore on MN many people are obeying rules now(No matter how incredibly pointless and ridiculous many of them are) and many obeyed them during WW2 but it's clear from that source and others that this image of everyone all obediently obeying them was not the case. Look at how crime increased during the Blackouts and how the Black Market thrived for just two examples. Yet people on MN still seem to use their fantasies of how people supposedly behaved during WW2 as a weapon to beat others over the head with. It's definitely a time period that is heavily romanticised by many.
there's a difference.

If people refused to go to shelters because it was hurting their "mental health", they ended up being flatten down, they didn't bring bombs on their neighbours.

When people refuse to obey any distancing guidelines and any rule whatsoever today, it's everybody around them who is impacted.

Selfish idiots are the ones creating chaos and restrictions, whilst selfish idiots didn't really need to encourage the nazis. When people are at direct risk, they tend to be more respectful too. Nowadays they don't care because they think it doesn't affect them directly.

You have to say something about the Chinese, they don't suffer vapour and hysteria because their local soft plays is shut or they are told to wear a mask once in awhile..

anniegun · 01/11/2020 16:07

Nobody can plead "anxiety" for refusing to follow a few sensible rules

dollychopss · 01/11/2020 16:10

@RedToothBrush

Why isn't China, who harvest the organs of political prisoners but deny doing so (which includes journalists who try to expose the human rights abuses of citizens by the state), having a second wave?

This is the same Chinese State who say covid only started in Dec 2019 despite there being evidence for it already having spread to Europe in at least as early as November 2019 yeah?

[ ponders ]

Agree