Say it with me folk - children are people

[Ohalrightthen]

So many threads on here, and so many people on my SM and in my whatsapp groups, all asking "we can meet one person outside the house, so it i go to meet my friend, can we take our kids?"

Are your kids people? Question answered!

I know it sucks, I'm gutted, and will shortly be spending aaaalllllll my time with my 1yr old and would love to be able to take her out with me to see friends, but surely a little common sense is in order?

My MIL has dementia and is coping very badly with lack of human contact. She thinks the nursing home staff have kidnapped her.

My son's allergy clinic appointments have been cancelled for months. We are OK but no new patients have been taken on.

FIL's outdoor walking group aimed at the elderly has stopped again. Lockdown has made him noticeably more frail.

My dad's gym going has stopped. He is 80 and has made serious effort to keep himself fit as he ages. He was eating less fresh food because he was being discouraged from going to the shops (now he says fuck it and goes every other day).

My mum cannot get an operation on her hernia.

One family member has died of covid. It was very sad. We loved him very much. He was in his eighties. He would likely have died sometime in the next couple of years. He did not want young people to suffer to give him more months.

End the lockdown madness.

Yes it is severe but not in the way you mean it OP.

So a non-mobile child isn't a person? A new born baby's and a sleeping toddler in a pushchair and a disabled child in a wheelchair are all in the same category? Make up your mind OP.

@RegularHumanBartender

What is the need for these lecturing threads? Do you think you're doing people a favour with your helpful "advice"?

I think the OP was being snidey about the people asking if kids count because “are your kids people? Question answered!” so aren’t all the people asking this very stupid.

Except it turns out babies are people too and the condescension was misplaced.

Toddler play dates may not be high risk, but they are a risk. It's only a month! Yes, it's going to be unpleasant. I'm not looking forward to it. But it's not forever and it is very necessary

Couple of things:

1. why are you so sure it will only be a month? Would your opinion change if it turns out to be more like 3? Or do people (disproportionately women of course) have to suck it up indefinitely?

2. it’s not just about playdates. If I want to see one of my parents for a walk but have to take my 2 year old with me (she will sit in a pram for half an hour), I can’t.

3. where’s the evidence that a young child from the same household as one of the adults being present is going to materially increase transmission?

@MessAllOver

Clearly what mothers of small babies should do is book a babysitter for their child (childcare allowed) in order to go meet their friend for a walk. After all, it's much less risk having someone actually coming into your house to care for your small child than to strap them into a buggy and take them with you .

Meanwhile, in the real world...

Indeed... this would work especially well if they happen to have a breastfed baby.

...apart from the fact that new studies have shown that covid antibodies aren't permanent.

That's an oversimplistic understanding. Antibodies may not be held in the blood permanently as that is a huge waste ot the body's resources. This does not mean the body could not reproduce them when needed, having had the infection previously. There simply isn't sufficient data yet. What we can say however, is that cases of reinfection have been vanishingly rare so far.

Nadine Dorries has now tweeted that children under school age will not count. Hopefully she isn’t chatting shit for once.

@FractionalGains

Nadine Dorries has now tweeted that children under school age will not count. Hopefully she isn’t chatting shit for once.

That would be a surprising but very welcome development.

@FractionalGains

Nadine Dorries has now tweeted that children under school age will not count. Hopefully she isn’t chatting shit for once.

That would make an enormous difference. It's the humane thing to do given the tiny increased risk ot infection that small children pose. There is no reason NOT to allow it. I really hope she's not talking nonsense and this exemption is made. If they were basing policy on evidence of impacts, this is a no brainer. But sadly there's been very little evidence so far of them doing so!

From personal experience of dealing with an objective reality (SEN not a pandemic) and subjective and political response to that objective reality, it seemed easier to go into fight mode and focus on the subjective. It seemed that this was where I had most agency and control.

But it was draining and didn't change the objective reality.

By obstinately insisting that support (my child being in school) and self-care (independence, work, socialising) could only happen if things were not as they were, I was denying myself access to the support and self care that was available and access to my own personal resources of resilience. Almost as if my subjective suffering could change objective reality. It really can't and will just make you feel hurt and angry.

Use your energies to find adaptations and work-arounds that refer directly to the objective reality you are operating in and that are flexible enough to deal with constantly changing rules and regulations. Have a fall back that is good enough if not ideal.

@user1274157963247

my common sense tells me that going for a walk with a baby in a pram outside is no real greater covid risk than walking alone

What has that got to do with going out to meet another person from a different household?

I'm assuming that by saying a mother walking with a baby in a pram is not really a greater threat than a mother on her own in terms of Covid. However, said mother can't meet another adult for a walk as that would be two people meeting with one other person which is not allowed. It's a bit shit and v isolating.

but surely a little common sense is in order?

My common sense tells me that a short walk with my toddler, his friend and my friend outside in the park poses little risk, and the little risk it poses is far outweighed by the emotional, social and mental health benefits.

But common sense isn't law, is it?

@ariettesmall

but surely a little common sense is in order?

My common sense tells me that a short walk with my toddler, his friend and my friend outside in the park poses little risk, and the little risk it poses is far outweighed by the emotional, social and mental health benefits.

But common sense isn't law, is it?

This

@onedayinthefuture

Do you realise how many women there are are stuck at home all day with babies and toddlers whilst their partners are at work? It's criminal that a woman should have to be alone all day waiting for dad to come home for an adult conversation or for someone to help. Cutting off women like this is dangerous. It's cruel and should be fucking illegal.

You’re lucky you get adult conversation out of dad. I have better ones with my 8 year old 😂.

@ariettesmall

but surely a little common sense is in order?

My common sense tells me that a short walk with my toddler, his friend and my friend outside in the park poses little risk, and the little risk it poses is far outweighed by the emotional, social and mental health benefits.

But common sense isn't law, is it?

And where do you draw the line?

Suddenly you are meeting your friend who has 3 kids with your 2 kids and it’s not fair on those who have 4 kids!

The problem is that everyone thinks they are a special case and have a special reason to not comply, which is why we’re here in the first place. It’s tough on everyone, but hopefully it will only be 4 weeks.

It’s now been clarified that children under school age do not count as “another person” in this meeting another person for exercise thing - which OF COURSE is at it should be.. my 4 month old and I are a single entity during weekdays at the moment and it would be discriminatory if mothers (and some fathers but let’s be honest women are still mainly the primary carers) weren’t allowed to see any other adults. There’s a huge and growing perinatal mental health crisis at present already - absolutely the last thing needed is further punishing isolation for parents of young children.

But children are only people in England...

Thats where the problem is, Wales and a
Scotland make more sense, whereas England are insisting children should count

The problem is that everyone thinks they are a special case and have a special reason to not comply, which is why we’re here in the first place. It’s tough on everyone, but hopefully it will only be 4 weeks

Well luckily it has now been clarified that children under school age don’t count for these purposes, so we can all stop arguing about it and I can take my two year old for walks with my dad

No that is not why we are here.

It isn't kiddie playdates that is breaking the NHS.

Try transmission in student halls, care homes, community care workers, hospitals and airports.

Common sense should also tell you that not meeting face to face with friends/family for a short walk in the park for a couple of weeks/months will not result in even short term let alone long term damage to emotional, social, psychological mental health for either you or your toddler.

You can still go to the park with your toddler to get out of the house, a change of scenery, physical activity, fresh air, kick the leaves, splash in puddles etc. You can still talk to friends or family using your phone, FaceTime, Skype.

This is largely how it was prepandemic if family and oldest friends were geographically distant. Except then this was accepted as normal rather than viewed as an attack on civil liberties.

@juliainthedeepwater

It’s now been clarified that children under school age do not count as “another person” in this meeting another person for exercise thing - which OF COURSE is at it should be.. my 4 month old and I are a single entity during weekdays at the moment and it would be discriminatory if mothers (and some fathers but let’s be honest women are still mainly the primary carers) weren’t allowed to see any other adults. There’s a huge and growing perinatal mental health crisis at present already - absolutely the last thing needed is further punishing isolation for parents of young children.

That's great. Where has this been clarified? It did seem nuts to say you could meet another adult, but not if you have a preschooler, like wtf are you meant to do with them?!

But it's not a couple of weeks/months, is it? It was the best part of 4 months earlier this year and now realistically going to be another 4 months. My toddler is in child care for 1 day a week. Apart from that she otherwise sees literally no one except me and her dad. This IS a serious developmental worry.

@notanoctopus yes exactly, they're sort of part of the package!

Here's one article but the story is everywhere: www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-young-children-exempted-key-22940133

Think it was largely due to pressure from the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed, who do great work.

My local MP has just shared this info

TWO PEOPLE MEETING OUTSIDE WITH CHILDREN

Children under school age who are with their parents will not count towards the limit on two people meeting outside. This will mean that a parent can see a friend or family member with their baby or young children.

Children and adults who are dependent on round-the-clock care, such as those with severe disabilities, will also be included. The guidance will be updated to reflect this.

I think this is the right approach and ministers have acted quickly to make the change. I anticipate there will be other changes and updates as we keep challenging where necessary. Please keep contacting me with questions and comments so I can feed them in. I’ll do my best to answer questions and keep you up to date.

[email protected]

[quote juliainthedeepwater]@notanoctopus yes exactly, they're sort of part of the package!

Here's one article but the story is everywhere: www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-young-children-exempted-key-22940133

Think it was largely due to pressure from the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed, who do great work.[/quote]
Thank goodness for that. This mat leave has been so isolating!