Damning report about Sweden

[CovidHalloween]

I’ve read a lot of hot air about Sweden’s “amazing” approach to the virus on here before.
The Times has just released a report on how badly Sweden has managed the virus and how it has one of the highest deaths per capita.

time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

But I think it’ll be 2 years before we can really say how well or badly a country has done. Yes they have higher deaths in first wave but may have an easier 2nd wave and no 3rd wave (for example). Many countries e.g Czech republic were praised for their low deaths in first wave ( including in U.K. media) but now having a terrible time. So it,’s not straight forward imo.

What a terrible article (and it's not The Times, it's Time).

You can see from these two graphs why Sweden took the correct approach, and the heavy lockdowners (Czech Rep) didn't. This is despite us all being told that the Czechs were the ones to emulate.

I don’t think I we can make judgements on any country yet. We’re not out of this. Give it a few years and see how we’re all doing then.
And I mean in terms economy, mental health, amount of businesses that collapsed..How many lockdowns each country had to go through and the issues lockdown caused.

Yes, the very knowledgeable people on the graphs and numbers thread have often put the record straight about Sweden's so-called wonder approach. Which has them in a far more negative position not only than their Scandinavian neighbours, but many other countries too. Many Swedish scientific experts have roundly condemned the approach taken and said it must never happen again, and of course there's the euthanising in all but name of many elderly people.
Sweden will not be judged kindly by history when all this is over, and nor should it be.

The countries that locked down hard like Spain and Czech Republic are now seeing huge resurgence with hundreds of deaths.

Sweden is not.

The death rate in Sweden per capita is LOWER than that of the UK. As written in your linked article.

The economy of Sweden is doing much BETTER than that if the UK or other countries that locked down.

That article seems very biased.

The charts above are meaningless. Check out the numbers/graphs thread to see how Sweden really did/is doing in terms of deaths X population and economic losses. Of course it's a rich country, and so at the moment the economic hit hasn't been as bad as poorer badly hit countries, but they're a long way from the "dealt with it well" box that other Scandinavian countries, Germany, Vietnam etc are in.

Let's wait until a year's time and then decide "who did best"

Sweden is 16th in the table of deaths per 1M capita, with 586 at the moment, and their economy is relatively unscathed. Whereas.......
Uk 660
Italy 618
USA 695
Spain 743
Belgium 931

It's way too early to judge how different countries fared, in terms of long term effects including unemployment and economic growth. Sweden seems to be doing better economically at this point than countries that locked down.

And indeed the death rate is lower than that of the UK as the Time article demonstrates:

And the article is from The Time, a US magazine, not the Times.

The charts above are meaningless. Check out the numbers/graphs thread to see how Sweden really did/is doing in terms of deaths X population and economic losses

Can you explain?

Article is mainly written by a left-wing activist.

Many on the left are quite happy to completely ignore the science, and use the crisis to portray everyone else as mass-murderers. (There are idiots on the right calling it a hoax as well).

To quote Patrick Vallance "all the academic evidence shows us that if you restrict virus transmission too much in the first wave, you get a much bigger second wave". I guess he's a disgusting mass-murderer too.

You need to look at how many cases and deaths they actually have - www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/. While they may be experiencing a second wave of new infections, their death rate remains low. The graphs on that article are bollocks and the statistics have been manipulated to support the writers own views.

Lockdowns like we’ve had in the UK are just delaying the inevitable, the virus is still out there regardless of how long you hide people away for. So you either go with herd immunity like Sweden, or you lockdown like China to try and tackle it long term. I’d rather take my chances and go with the Swedish approach thanks.

If you check the posts on the numbers thread from 22nd and 23rd of October, there are useful graphics comparing Sweden with others.
On deaths X million it sits slightly below the UK and Italy.
Deaths X million CF other Scandinavian countries
Sweden 585
Norway 51
Finland 63
Denmark 117.

I think people are quick to talk about overall deaths as being relevant- but of course they aren't. Because then there could be no meaningful analysis of the figures. Sweden obviously is going to have fewer overall deaths than countries with more people, but their % X fixed numbers are appalling.

I'll attach the table from the graphs thread, there's another which plots some countries according to deaths/economic hits which is also worth a look. I'll see if I can find it. It has Sweden iirc in not quite the same area as the UK, but not with its neighbours either.
It will undoubtedly recover sooner- better government, better healthcare, wealthier etc. But it's not a country anyone else should be using as a "this is what we should do" example.

Sweden's economy is doing much better than that if other countries including the UK.

So even if herd immunity caused slightly more deaths (which is not evident) the longer term costs in terms of unemployment and debt, not to mention mental health, will be far lower.

The comparator surely has to be other Scandinavian countries, doesn't it? On that basis, as demonstrated by @TheSeedsOfADream's post, Sweden's record is dreadful.

@Lavendersy

Sweden's economy is doing much better than that if other countries including the UK.

So even if herd immunity caused slightly more deaths (which is not evident) the longer term costs in terms of unemployment and debt, not to mention mental health, will be far lower.

Not of all other countries, but it's certainly in a better position than most in Europe apart from its Scandinavian neighbours and the countries which acted pre-emptively. But its death rate is unforgivable for a country boasting excellent healthcare. And of course, as has been said a million times on a million threads, 50% of adult Swedes live alone, so naturally live a more socially distanced life, and though there was no govt sanctioned/implemented lockdown, there was a great sense of civic responsibility. Which helped mitigate what would have been cataclysmic figures otherwise. Imagine their rate X million if they hadn't taken on the personal responsibility themselves!

@TheSeedsOfADream

The vast majority of deaths in Sweden were in care homes. They have admitted that they failed to properly protect the vulnerable in these homes.

I didn't believe Sweden had some magical, unique approach to covid in the first place. I don't belive they got it horriobly wrong either.

I believe now, as I did in March, it will be years yet before we know what steps would have been efficaceous. And ranking countries by deaths with so little understanding of the data we do have is growing more and more egregious by the day!

All those graphs purporting to show meaningful comparisons are wretched. They are raw data, not an analysis in and of themselves! So many posters here and the world over, leap in to make something of them, some with very little understanding and some with great fear.

It is impossible to discuss the many and varied variables without a post becoming combative or fearmongering.

[quote Ecosse]@TheSeedsOfADream

The vast majority of deaths in Sweden were in care homes. They have admitted that they failed to properly protect the vulnerable in these homes.[/quote]
Very true.

Rather than focus on countries that have done badly (but still better than the UK) might be wise to look at our own disaster and the politicians making the decisions?

UK excess deaths is pretty much top of the table in Europe but lets criticise a country that has done better than UK......

Here's the graphic showing Sweden is in the high deaths, low economic impact area, for all the reasons we know.
I can't find a similar graph on the site ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data/
though I'm sure I did see one on the graphs thread, though there are so many I might be wrong.
On the FT site there's an excess deaths table showing Sweden higher than France in September. Other Scandinavian countries way lower.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

All we have is the raw data to look at how countries have managed, inc the UK.... in 5 / 10 years time, it will all be too late, a long forgotten pandemic with Johnson and Hammond in the Lords, beyond revoke.

All this shows is those countries that didn’t do a hard lock down had higher deaths initially but those that did lock down are just pushing the inevitable down the road and as soon as everything opened up deaths escalated

If we opened everything up again, practiced SD and wearing masks and let those who are vulnerable stay indoors then it would be over a lot quicker and have fewer deaths overall than this prolonged agony that is being imposed atm.

We should have done this in the summer when those that had been infected and survived were still immune and we were not battling through normal winter colds

What is the point in criticising Sweden's approach when the UK has done worse than Sweden, both in terms of deaths per capita and economic downturn?

I personally prefer the more liberal Swedish approach without enforced lockdowns.