Sweden seeing much smaller increase in cases compared to rest of Europe

[SussexDeb]

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

No massive surge like in France, Spain, UK and Netherlands.

More and more it looks like Sweden has taken the right approach with limited restrictions. Avoiding fatigue among the public around the measures and making sure good hygiene is practiced.

Norway Covid Deaths: 278
Finland Covid Deaths: 346
Sweden Covid Deaths (drum roll please): 5918

Sweden is not comparable to the uk - for a start they do voluntarily what people here are reluctant to do with a law. Norway and Finland are sensible comparators for Sweden and have done much better than Sweden.

Compare us to America - refusal to wear masks, stupid leader, massive economic damage, more deaths.

FFS, Sweden is now debating putting the country into lockdown.

I've not heard anything about this and I live in Sweden.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sweden-to-start-lockdowns-worlds-22864690

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8850953/Coronavirus-Sweden-Authorities-bring-local-lockdowns-Covid-cases-soar.html

The British media do report a lot of nonsense about Sweden. They really do. There is no discussion of implementing lockdown here. There's been discussion about putting in place legislation to allow local authorities to make decisions based on the needs of the area. That's a far cry from saying we're on the brink of bringing in lockdown.

In my region of just under 2 million people, we currently have 53 people in hospital with just 6 in intensive care.

The British media do report a lot of nonsense about Sweden. They really do. There is no discussion of implementing lockdown here. There's been discussion about putting in place legislation to allow local authorities to make decisions based on the needs of the area. That's a far cry from saying we're on the brink of bringing in lockdown.
The reason is that an awful lot of people are going to look rather silly if it turns out that Sweden was right all along. That's all this boils down to.

It's funny how some people choose to ignore some posts and keep their heads in the sand.

Norway Covid Deaths: 278
Finland Covid Deaths: 346
Sweden Covid Deaths (drum roll please): 5918

People in the UK want to be like Sweden so they don't have to inconvenience themselves with restrictions to movement and mixing. If the Swedish strategy works its because they voluntarily restrict their movement and mixing. "We should be like Sweden" is a nonsense!

Do you think people in the UK don’t voluntarily restrict their movements - especially around at risk groups? Even if there were no restrictions, I would be very careful around elderly/vulnerable people though not among younger people. I don’t know anyone who would do differently. And certainly the elderly I know are being cautious in their movements though still seeing some people/family even if it is against ‘the rules.’

It is also noticeable that UK case rates have flattened even before the impact of the latest government measures would be apparent. People react to the news on cases by adjusting their behaviour.

The real lesson from Sweden is not that everyone carried on as normal, but that voluntary measures can really work in slowing the spread and cause much less public anger than seemingly arbitrary and everchanging rules.

If you think Sweden's special Scandinavian culture is want stopped deaths from being higher, you might want to look at other places that didn't lock down and are showing a remarkably similar pattern. Like Texas.

In a minute someone will say this is because Texans are extremely compliant and have a high trust in government...

eyewhisker but what would be the benefit to the individual of 'being like Sweden' then? Perhaps where you live people are complying with rules/voluntarily restricting their movements but I can assure you that it's not universal. And you surely cannot deny that many people want us to be like Sweden so they don't have to restrict their activities to the same extent?

We can't compare the UK and Sweden not least because of the average life expectancy. Sweden 82, England 79.1 and Scotland @Ecosse with 77.1 the lowest in Western Europe ( all figures for males 2017). Lower life expectancies reflect the health of the population and we might want to ask how Sweden achieves such a good figure if it's "just like the uk".

The real lesson from Sweden is not that everyone carried on as normal, but that voluntary measures can really work in slowing the spread and cause much less public anger than seemingly arbitrary and everchanging rules.

I would add that honesty and accountability plays a large part too. The Swedish authorities aren't lying to us every time they appear on tv. Yes they've got things wrong, but they acknowledge it, apologise, and try to make changes so it doesn't happen again. I've no idea how the British people are resisting the urge to reach into their tvs to wring Johnson's and Hancock's necks.

Sweden has not performed as well as you think. Take a look at the graph I attached from the Financial Times.
They have taken a financial hit and it cost them a lot of lives. They are not the winners here.
The real winners are the countries on the top left hand corner like china Vietnam Finland Denmark. But no, you keep bringing back Sweden for some reason (massive face palm) !

Sweden has not performed as well as you think. Take a look at the graph I attached from the Financial Times.
They have taken a financial hit and it cost them a lot of lives. They are not the winners here.
It's way too early to talk about economic hits. Revisit that graph in 12 months. As for deaths, again, this is just one of numerous metrics that should be considered. If death was the key criteria, we'd all want to live in China, but some of us value certain things in life (you know, like freedom of speech)..

Given where we are now, I think many people would in retrospect have done a China-style lockdown in March-April. However, that is now too late as the virus is totally endemic throughout the whole U.K. and all of Europe.

This rules out the other comparisons above. Given where we are, eradication is not possible. We therefore need to think how we can live with the virus until a possible vaccine at least cost - not just on covid deaths, but in all lives, livelihoods, education and quality of life.

@QueenBlueberries

It's funny how some people choose to ignore some posts and keep their heads in the sand.

Norway Covid Deaths: 278
Finland Covid Deaths: 346
Sweden Covid Deaths (drum roll please): 5918

Ok, thanks. Could you add the size of the population? Or do it as a percentage?
I know it will be higher for Sweden, but the numbers mean little unless you know the size of the total population.

@HalfPastThree

If you think Sweden's special Scandinavian culture is want stopped deaths from being higher, you might want to look at other places that didn't lock down and are showing a remarkably similar pattern. Like Texas.

In a minute someone will say this is because Texans are extremely compliant and have a high trust in government...

What do you it is then?

I don't think anyone is saying that Swedish culture (not "Scandinavian") stopped deaths from being higher particularly, but the culture has helped in the sense that strict rules/new laws have not been necessary. Also, things like the fact that parents can stay at home with ill children and still get paid do help.

A China style lockdown
.... is only feasible in a repressive autocratic regime like China

@Eyewhisker you genuinely think the UK population would have been happy to abide by China style restrictions?

it's not just that the UK population would not abide by china style restrictions, the UK does not have procedures and infrastructure in place to enforce such restrictions

Ok, thanks. Could you add the size of the population? Or do it as a percentage?
I know it will be higher for Sweden, but the numbers mean little unless you know the size of the total population.

Sweden has 585 deaths per million
Denmark is the next highest at 117 per million. Finland and Norway are much lower.
Check Worldometer.

@Eyewhisker

Given where we are now, I think many people would in retrospect have done a China-style lockdown in March-April. However, that is now too late as the virus is totally endemic throughout the whole U.K. and all of Europe.

This rules out the other comparisons above. Given where we are, eradication is not possible. We therefore need to think how we can live with the virus until a possible vaccine at least cost - not just on covid deaths, but in all lives, livelihoods, education and quality of life.

Actually, it's not too late. But no country in Europe will implement it and I don't think they should. The economies are different too.

In every country the majority of the population will end up getting the virus at some point. The key is to protect those with risk factors 100 to 1000 times that of the general population (largely those aged 75+)

Both the UK and Sweden failed in that regard.

The lockdown vs no lockdown argument is largely moot, as both populations now have a fair bit of immunity built in meaning any 2nd peak will be much wider, meaning an overwhelming of health services is less likely. Large amounts of immunity was built into both populations before lockdown started.

The UK will probably see a broad but not high 2nd wave (nothing like the first) and Sweden's will be even broader and lower.

@Sarahsah4r4 I agree