Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

Sorry critical care beds

Is it too much to ask though, at a time of national emergency, to ask people whose jobs are not possible at the moment (but will be in the future) to temporarily retrain and temporarily fulfill a different role for a short time instead of being paid for nothing?
I think that depends on who is being asked to do the retraining. If you've worked all your life to be in a certain career, and that rug is pulled from under you overnight for a disease which affects a tiny demographic, of course you are going to be mightily pissed off.
I know I would be.

[quote Northernsoulgirl45]Well Manchester is close to running out of hospital beds. Yet schools remain open even in tier 3 areas. Seems to me that tbe Govt is doing all it can to protect childrens education.
www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/greater-manchester-hospital-beds-covid-a4572070.html[/quote]
A spokesperson for the NHS in Greater Manchester told The Guardian: “We are monitoring the situation with our hospital admissions, overall beds and ICU beds very, very closely.

“It’s not unusual for 80 to 85 per cent of ICU beds to be in use at this time of year ..."

[quote Northernsoulgirl45]Well Manchester is close to running out of hospital beds. Yet schools remain open even in tier 3 areas. Seems to me that tbe Govt is doing all it can to protect childrens education.
www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/greater-manchester-hospital-beds-covid-a4572070.html[/quote]
Indeed, therefore the ridiculous suggestion of sacrificing the young is wrong.
Things are just different at the moment but with education still going on, most of the country able to get out and about, clubs, even holidays then its a compromise.

Is it too much to ask though, at a time of national emergency, to ask people whose jobs are not possible at the moment (but will be in the future) to temporarily retrain and temporarily fulfill a different role for a short time instead of being paid for nothing?

Of course it's too much to bloody ask - certainly in the case of this "national emergency". How much would that cost, and wouldn't it be better spent on actually funding the NHS instead of constantly guiltripping the population into not using it?

Even if that costs their lives in the case of non Covid illnesses.

And at this time of year hospitals are constantly on the brink of bloody disaster. Shouldn't the summer have been spent preparing for this?

I'm not talking about frontline staff obviously.

I thought the crisis in hospital beds usually hapoens later in the year. Anyway the NHS is chronically underfunded and yes the Govt should have planned for this and got a proper track and trace in place.

Also in report Liverpool is at 90% and it takes time for infections to require hospital admissions.

We have become accustomed to very nice lives here in the uk (generally speaking of course) education, disposable income, social lives, hobbies etc. Which is lovely. But asking young people to “give these up” for a few years really isn’t the end of their world, and if it feels catastrophic to them then it won’t hurt for them to build a bit of resilience to be honest.

And complaining about giving up some luxuries (and they are luxuries) in order to help protect the very people who lost friends, family, and often a part of their sanity, to ensure we lived in a free country beggars belief really !

Problem is that young people (late teens early 20) don’t just ‘do fun stuff’ but are overwhelmingly employed in the industries that support the fun stuff - so they are suffering a double whammy

And they’ll be the ones paying for it for years to come

@HesterShaw1

Is it too much to ask though, at a time of national emergency, to ask people whose jobs are not possible at the moment (but will be in the future) to temporarily retrain and temporarily fulfill a different role for a short time instead of being paid for nothing?

Of course it's too much to bloody ask - certainly in the case of this "national emergency". How much would that cost, and wouldn't it be better spent on actually funding the NHS instead of constantly guiltripping the population into not using it?

Even if that costs their lives in the case of non Covid illnesses.

Why is it too much to ask @HesterShaw1? If their current job is not viable at the moment.

So would you rather just throw money at them to sit at home, or give them nothing and expect them to live on fresh air for 6 months.

Funding of the nhs is a whole different issue. There was ample funding to build nightingale hospitals, but obviously they need to staff them so will need to borrow staff from the already stretched nhs hospitals. Retention of staff is a big problem (you’d understand why if you worked there) plus staff sickness absence currently too. Also many staff are taking the option to retire or go part time, I don’t blame them.

No one is guilt tripping the public not to use the nhs, some departments are functioning differently at the moment, but most I know of are open in some capacity and starting to work on the backlog from the last lockdown when we were all redeployed to help on the wards. From what I can see from rising numbers on our wards (with itu at full capacity), I think unfortunately we will be called back soon, which will lead to more cancellations of other services. We don’t want this, but can’t be in two places at once.

Some of us who are highly skilled were used as porters and hca’s in the last lockdown. So you’re telling me you couldn’t train someone up (who is out of work at the moment) to fulfill that role, so that we could continue in our normal roles?

It’s only my opinion, and obviously we don’t get a say in what we do...but I don’t blame many of my colleagues who are planning to leave because it was too much last time and they can’t face it again.

[quote Watermelon999]@celan
“Those adverts were beyond offensive to anyone who knows how long someone has to train for, if they want a professional job in the Arts.

If you're not convinced, imagine Lockdown without music, TV, film, or books.”

Is it too much to ask though, at a time of national emergency, to ask people whose jobs are not possible at the moment (but will be in the future) to temporarily retrain and temporarily fulfill a different role for a short time instead of being paid for nothing?

I agree we need the arts and those who can still work definitely should do so, but like the airline staff who have been working in hospitals, there are probably numerous really useful short term roles they could do. In return for a regular, decent level of pay?[/quote]
Are you retraining for a job that offers a significant wage/ salary reduction, unsociable hours, zero hour contract? Because if you're sitting comfortably in the job you have worked hard for yet you're dictating how others in less fortunate positions should feel and act and what they should accept, then you know what that makes you, don't you?

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

“Are you retraining for a job that offers a significant wage/ salary reduction, unsociable hours, zero hour contract? Because if you're sitting comfortably in the job you have worked hard for yet you're dictating how others in less fortunate positions should feel and act and what they should accept, then you know what that makes you, don't you?”

You mean as opposed to their current salary of zero if they’re not working and furlough ends?

See message below....yes we have all had to make adjustments to our current roles and in my case was sent to a different hospital further away, which cost more to get to, with different hours and had no choice in that. Did not get given the option to be paid to sit at home. Had 1 day training for this new role.

[quote Watermelon999]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

“Are you retraining for a job that offers a significant wage/ salary reduction, unsociable hours, zero hour contract? Because if you're sitting comfortably in the job you have worked hard for yet you're dictating how others in less fortunate positions should feel and act and what they should accept, then you know what that makes you, don't you?”

You mean as opposed to their current salary of zero if they’re not working and furlough ends?

See message below....yes we have all had to make adjustments to our current roles and in my case was sent to a different hospital further away, which cost more to get to, with different hours and had no choice in that. Did not get given the option to be paid to sit at home. Had 1 day training for this new role.[/quote]
In other words
"no I have no experience of what they're going through but I'm still going to tell them how they should feel"

Well Manchester is close to running out of hospital beds. Yet schools remain open even in tier 3 area

Hospital beds are an issue every winter, but we don't close schools to protect the elderly from flu. And yes I know covid isn't flu, but flu is very serious - it is NOT like a cold, despite many MNers claiming it is.

The cybersecurity ads were nothing to do with covid by the way, but the timing was unfortunate.

Absolutely- there are news reports every winter about the NHS rubbing out of beds to treat flu patients and beds in hospital corridors.

Not once have I seen any suggestions that we shut everything down to prevent this.

@cologne4711

Well Manchester is close to running out of hospital beds. Yet schools remain open even in tier 3 area

Hospital beds are an issue every winter, but we don't close schools to protect the elderly from flu. And yes I know covid isn't flu, but flu is very serious - it is NOT like a cold, despite many MNers claiming it is.

The fact that flu can be very serious does not mean it hospitalises the same number of people as Covid. The NHS copes with the flu every year but that doesn't mean it could cope with a virus which hospitalises a much higher proportion of people, especially when it will also have to deal with hospitalisations due to flu.

@Watermelon999

Totally agree with you.

Lot of hypocrisy flying about

How many of those screeching ‘save the elderly’ would take the opportunity of the hiatus in their career in the Arts to take their parents out of the care home? Some of them would. But not a chance all of them would.

Or how many of them would consider a temporary career shift into Social Care? It’s one thing spouting lofty morals on Social Media & quite another backing them with actions.

Low pay is better than no pay at the moment & even that may not remain the case if the government turn off the cheap labour migration tap

Flu season isn't until December though so the strain of both flu and COVID on top is limrly to be immense until we get it under control and sort out track and trace.

Likely

Why is it too much to ask @HesterShaw1? If their current job is not viable at the moment.

Well it is kind of too much to ask isn't it? Given that actually it takes a long time to train a medical person and an awful lot of money. And you need a certain skill set and level of personal intelligence, which a significant proportion of people don't have.

Keeping the NHS properly funded and organised so it copes with winter demand without shutting down society doesn't seem than complex or expensive in comparison.

@Northernsoulgirl45

Flu season isn't until December though so the strain of both flu and COVID on top is limrly to be immense until we get it under control and sort out track and trace.

Why should a few short weeks be enough to "sort out track and trace" work when six months apparently did not?

The fact that flu can be very serious does not mean it hospitalises the same number of people as Covid. The NHS copes with the flu every year but that doesn't mean it could cope with a virus which hospitalises a much higher proportion of people, especially when it will also have to deal with hospitalisations due to flu.

Again, this shows exactly why the running down of the NHS in the last decade leaving it operate on a shoestring was such fucking stupid shortsighted thing to do. Why do we not have more capacity to deal with acutely ill people?

And if this virus is to be around for a while, how about some actual planning for it, instead of telling people they should lockdown and screw their livelihoods and education and social lives and mental wellbeing for it?

Because it takes a few years to train up nurses and doctors ?