Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

So? The vast majority have no symptoms or very mild ones, most people can afford to just ignore it. Those who can't can be shielded.

The statistics on the number of people who are asymptomatic are hugely variable but certainly doesnt average out at 'most'.

Mild in a medical sense means 'didnt need to be admitted to hospital'. It can still mean off work for several days. Post viral syndrome or longCovid seems to be affecting as much as 10% of people who have had covid.

So it a criminal what we have done to the young. But clearly only the healthy young of fit and healthy parents.
It seems many people are happy for the 15% of the ecvs children to put their lives on hold or risk bringing home the virus to their parents and making them very ill.

The economy is not going to fare well if we allow this contagious illness to let rip amonst the apparently healthy.
Not many ops requiring itu beds will take place if icu is full of 45 + critically ill patients.

It seems many people are happy for the 15% of the ecvs children to put their lives on hold or risk bringing home the virus to their parents and making them very ill.

But you are happy for 100% all children to do that?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

The sad fact is hospital during a pandemic is not the place to be if its for a procedure that could be delayed.

And by delaying procedures we are putting people in danger. But not COVID, so who cares?

One of the reasons people care about COVID because they care about all the other services. We can run all services in some form with infection controlled. We can’t run any (including covid care) if the numbers surge past capacity. Health care collapses.

There is a high incidence of perfectly healthy under 45’s (certainly under 80) who require medical intervention. People are going to seek medical attention when they are ill and struggling to breathe, even if it’s fleeting and they can cope at home once stabilised. That’s ignoring the increasing evidence that vascular illnesses are triggered by covid.

Death is the worst possible outcome but it’s certainly not the only factor in overwhelming the health service and workforce. If covid had only killed 3 people we would still have a big problem on our hands if it swept through the population unchecked. That’s a lot of HCP’s physically unable to work and a good portion of the general workforce incapacitated - this also fucks up the economy and would lead to a lot of unnecessary deaths. Currently absolute emergencies can be allocated resources, that disappears without intervention to control the spread.

@GnomeDePlume

So? The vast majority have no symptoms or very mild ones, most people can afford to just ignore it. Those who can't can be shielded.

The statistics on the number of people who are asymptomatic are hugely variable but certainly doesnt average out at 'most'.

Mild in a medical sense means 'didnt need to be admitted to hospital'. It can still mean off work for several days. Post viral syndrome or longCovid seems to be affecting as much as 10% of people who have had covid.

That's utter tosh... Up to 80% have no symptoms.... You are not telling me half of the ones that do have long covid.... Also every illness has people that take much longer to recover from... Its nothing new.

Divide and rule is working well then! The whole country is in shit. Yes some older people have mortgage free properties, secure pensions and no debt. Many don't.

I think this narrative of the "elderly" have had their time is truly frightening.

Many people in their 30s and 40s are losing jobs and homes. Have you any idea how difficult it can be for someone in their 40s or 50s to start again?

I think the point I am trying to make is that many people are suffering in different ways and it's not as simple as saying that the young are being sacrificed. Don't get me wrong I feel very sorry for young people. My DN is 18 and she has missed out on things which, although maybe not crucial in the grand scheme of things are things that she will now never get the chance to do.

This is a new virus and it is difficult to get things right all the time but maybe if there was more concentration on trying to find the best solution for everyone instead of encouraging the scapegoating of certain groups we would all be better off.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon schools are open. Clubs are open in most areas. Hie is their life on hold?
If COVID runs throughout the population unchecked it won't be possible to protect the dc at school in their massive bubbles from bringing it home to their ecv parent.
When dh shielded the last time we either all had to shield or practice social distancing in the home or risk our dc losing their father and of course also to protect NHS.
Dds school have always said we will be fined if they don't attend or we must derigister according to many on here.

@Cornettoninja I think you are right. In many ways the death rate is irrelevant. What is important is the number of people who get ill.

My fear is not of dying of covid but of getting ill and then staying ill for months afterwards. After a couple of weeks my employer would be starting to look at me sideways. After a couple of months I would probably find myself out of a job. No income means the mortgage wont get paid.

I should think many, many people are in the same situation. Death isnt the worry, getting ill, staying ill is.

Chardonnay - would you want to undergo major surgery by a COVID positive asymptomatic surgeon so that your risk is higher? Would other healthcare staff want the risk of catching it from their colleagues and spreading it to other patients and their own families? If you do not take precautions like isolating and if rate of transmission is high, this kind of situation becomes more likely.

Maybe you wouldn’t even be able to have the surgery because there would be no beds due to more people being hospitalised...

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

It seems many people are happy for the 15% of the ecvs children to put their lives on hold or risk bringing home the virus to their parents and making them very ill.

But you are happy for 100% all children to do that?

They are not having to put their lives on hold. Most are at school at the moment. That doesn't mean we should just let the virus rip through the population and keep schools open indefinitely however high infections are. There needs to be a compromise.

schools are open. Clubs are open in most areas. Hie is their life on hold?

You know very well that schools and other activities and far from normal.

And you know very well that millions of jobs are on the line and with that normal family life. But you only seem to care about some of these children and families.

The difference between lockdown measures for everyone vs just the vulnerable is that the former will decrease transmission in the population whereas the latter will not. The former will decrease hospitalizations of vulnerable and non vulnerable people more than the latter (I suspect much more). The former will allow the country to get to a certain number of infections in the country (eg rate in June) quicker than the latter and have a lower risk of overloading hospitals.

The quicker we get the virus under control the less damage to the economy.

@Forgetmenot157

www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-what-proportion-are-asymptomatic/

From WHO 80% are asymptomatic or mild symptoms, 15% are severe symptoms requiring oxygen, 5% are critical requiring ventilation.

So, on this spread, 'mild' is medically mild so not requiring oxygen. Mild does not mean bouncing round, carrying on as normal.

The statistics on asymptomatic infections are less than clear. It is also not clear how many people being tested are asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic.

Post viral syndrome isnt new but this is an extra virus not instead of other viruses. What is not yet known is the impact of catching covid alongside flu

@ChardonnaysPetDragon
I care about everyone thank you. Everyone is having to make some sacrifices in a pandemic to stop the NHS being overwhelmed.
It seems you just want certain people to take the full hit.
The other issue of course is that COVID is like Russian Roulette. No one really knows who will get Long COVID or could have an undiagnosed pre existing condition.
I wouldn't want to take a chance on herd immunity. Even the buffoon BJ eventually realised that wasn't an option.

Oh flipping heck ChardonnaysPetDragon why are you looking for people to blame for this mess? It isn't the elderly's fault or the over 50s or the under 50s or vulnerable people or whatever group you think somehow is being protected at your expense

The culprit here is the virus, a virus we currently have no real control over. If we let it run free, the consequences won't be good for any of us. If you think "all" that will happen is the pesky old folk and vulnerable folk will get ill while you go on your merry way, you need to think again.

I'm not blaming anyone.

I just wonder if there is a better way of managing it.

It seems you just want certain people to take the full hit.

Yes, I want the young, the healthy and the willing to work and to take a risk to take the hit, so the vulnerable can shield and the economy can survive.

Well it has been explained to you why it won't work?

The elderly I know are thoroughly fed up offing told to keep away from their grandchildren or not receive visitors. I tried to remind a lady in her 80s that she shouldn't really be doing the shopping and couldI help and she said at this point in my life I want quality not quantity. She was quite annoyed with me..

So actually I think we are sacrificing both the elderly and the young because Boris can't organise himself out of a paper bag.

So what about the shielding vulnerables Mental Health and their or their children's education?
All these kids whose mental health and education have suffered so much whilst schools were closed temporarily.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

It seems many people are happy for the 15% of the ecvs children to put their lives on hold or risk bringing home the virus to their parents and making them very ill.

But you are happy for 100% all children to do that?

Children's lifes are not put on hold....schools are open, playing areas open, in most places swimming pools, parks and gardens....

How are children's lives put on hold?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

It seems you just want certain people to take the full hit.

Yes, I want the young, the healthy and the willing to work and to take a risk to take the hit, so the vulnerable can shield and the economy can survive.

The economy is fucked whatever we do. Do you think that if we lock the elderly and vulnerable away, the virus is going to wave bye bye and vanish? If it is allowed to circulate freely in the rest of society it will cause havoc.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

It seems you just want certain people to take the full hit.

Yes, I want the young, the healthy and the willing to work and to take a risk to take the hit, so the vulnerable can shield and the economy can survive.

How are the millions of vulnerable people going to shield? It is a pretty high proportion of the population and many are of working age and some will have children at school . If it was possible don't you think they'd be doing it anyway and we wouldn't have any deaths in the first place?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Bornlazy

No we are sacrificing to save the many.

No, we are not. We are sacrificing everything to save very few lives.

We well have economic meltdown with millions of unemployed and a Heath service that’s not fit for purpose.

How about the missed cancer and other illnesses? How about the thousand of routine appointment that are rescheduled? Pregnant women having all midwife appointments over the phone? Some trusts have already cancelling all but the emergency blood tests. Why?

We are sacrificing far too much when we can easily shield the very vulnerable and get on with our lives.

The government, under popular pressure needs to be seen to do something and they are doing the highly visible, so that they can be seen doing something.

They are trying to minimise one risk and fuck about with the rest.

That's why everyone's anger needs to be directed at the govt that's made those appalling decisions. It isn't like that in some other countries. It never was, not even in full March lockdown.