Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

@loobyloo1234

Yes we are

The problem is nobody knows how long they have left. My nanna died last week aged 85. Old age. She had no health conditions and we regularly joked she would outlive us. We now wish she hadnt lived such a lonely life over the last 6 months and we feel very guilty. Is 2 years of loneliness worth it?

And this just makes me realise some old people may actually be happy to take their risks with it than go through months, possibly years of loneliness - just to keep less than 1% of the population safe

That's how my nan feels, last lockdown she felt so alone she thought about killing herself several times. I'm not willing to have her go through that again

No. People are a bit thick, tbh. Even if it were morally totally ok to think of the elderly's lives as dispensable (which is just vile and makes me think of historical regimes who made decisions as to who deserves to live and who deserves to die), surely people can see the logical, unemotional reasons for restritcions? It is not "saving the elderly" so much as "preventing the country's health and social care services from being completely overwhelmed". All people will be impacted if that happens, whatever our age and vulnerability status.

I wouldn’t go for do nothing. I’m ok with restrictions where I am (just changed) and abide by rules. But I don’t want to take more away from children / teens.

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly with @Ecosse.

My 81 year old mother with dementia is one of those currently locked in her room at the care home, because last week four residents tested positive and one has died. Anyone living in that care home has a horrible life. They're not there for fun. They're there because they have dementia, have no idea who they are, what they are and are waiting to die. It's a miserable existence at the best of times, made a hundred times worse by the pandemic. I can't see my mother, can't take her out, can't speak to her (she doesn't know what a phone is and has lost most of her language). For most residents, death would be a blessing and I pray they have euthanasia in this country if I ever get to that stage.

Similarly, even without dementia, most people go into care homes as a last resort. They're weak, ill and unable to manage at home. Most die fairly soon after moving into care homes.

I have no idea why we're sacrificing this country, young people and the economy to keep this section of the population alive. It makes no sense.

I'd advocate the following:

Anyone with dementia or a terminal illness who contracts Covid is given palliative care within their own accommodation, not in hospital. Either they fight Covid and recover, or are given morphine if they can't fight the virus and have a peaceful death.

If hospitals remain overwhelmed then let's have a cut off. Start with anyone aged 85 or over. Again, palliative care at home.

Giving hospital support to a sprightly 65 year old is one thing, trying to keep a frail 85 year old alive is another.

On a macro level this world is overpopulated. Why we think we can control a virus and never die is beyond me.

I wish it were so simple as nasty tories who only cares about the economy v nice caring lockdowners who’ll just shut everything and everyone will live happily ever after.

If you have a crashed economy, not only does that cause many health conditions and deaths in itself (including reducing DC’s life expectancy) but there will also be no money to fund the NHS and other public services we have currently.

Ecosse,

If the health system fails, what do you think happens to the economy?

Dappled,

Again, that is sheer fantasy.

The ‘sprightly 65 year old’ would end up ‘cut off’, as would the 60 year old and maybe the 55 year old.

@Madhairday

It seems to me that there is a lot of dramatising here from parents about how it is ruining their children's future. I asked my 20 year old DD what she and her friends thought and what the general thinking is. She said that they just see it as pulling together with everyone in order to stop the health services (and so every other sector of society) from being overrun by covid and thus stopping functioning which will cause more death and misery. All her friends think this too. They do not blame elderly and vulnerable people for taking their life chances away as many on this thread and MN in general seem to. They see that this is a virus, a pandemic, a distaster that we all just have to get on with keeping suppressed as far as is possible through the measures scientists advise. They see their peers who do complain about 'sacrificing for those who will die soon anyway' as pretty damn cold and lacking in compassion. For my DD and her friends, this all sucks but it does for everyone and there is nothing to be gained by this polarising of positions that ends in blaming one group or the other - why can't we just be kind, my DD says, and I concur. Why can't we just admit that this virus doesn't care about our rights and our freedoms and our mental health and so we simply have to get on with flattening the curve where we can, in order that all those rights and freedoms and mental health issues don't become even more at risk due to the whole system collapsing under greater exponential growth.

I'm so glad my DD and many of her generation see things more generously and compassionately than many on here, despite the fact that they know their future looks bleak (and already did thanks to austerity, Brexit and climate change.)

I hope they're as generous and understanding in 2 years when the economic fallout is more obvious. When they struggle to find jobs, move out of their parents homes, and generally live their lives as they assume they will be able to. I tend to not listen to much to the economic musings of 14-20 year olds. I do listen to other business owners in my industry (weddings). I personally know the owners of 12 small businesses who are most likely going to have to close in the next six months and 3 who have already folded. They employ hundreds of staff between them. If our industry can't get going again in the summer then I think the whole industry will collapse. That's a £14billion industry gone. Think of the tax revenue that will be lost. The number of nurses and teachers' wages that won't be able to be funded. This is just one corner of the employment market that will be decimated and there are many others. They'll all be looking for work at the same time. All claiming benefits at the same time. The economy and our safety nets will bottom out. Your DD and her friends' futures look worse than bleak to me. The "be kind" mantra just won't cut it when the economy is fucked beyond all recognition.

The Heath system was nowhere close to collapsing in April @larrygrylls and there is no evidence it will now.

In fact nurses had time to film tiktok videos and use up PPE. I am a management consultant and DH a solicitor- we’d both have been out the door within the day of we’d done that while turning away clients.

@larrygrylls we can choose if we want to allow the health system to fail. Let's focus on palliative care, at home, for anyone in a care/nursing home and let's think carefully about why we think it's a good idea to admit frail people aged 75+ to hospital to try and keep them alive.

Let's have a cut off and make some firm decisions and see what happens. But what is the likelihood of hospitals being overwhelmed by people requiring admission in their 40s, 50s and 50s? Surely the evidence suggests it would be low?

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

And l find people with the attitude of not wanting to protect the elderly very scary. What sort of society sacrifices its elderly?😞

The children and young adults will be fine in the long run. The elderly and the vulnerable are the priority, and l would never even question it. It’s about being a member of a compassionate society ( not that Boris gives a shit) but l do.

Quite Same old names crop up spouting their eugenics and ageism on all of these threads. I wouldn't want to live inside the heads of these people. Thankfully, where I live (and teach 300 young people a week) I've never heard, not in school, in society in general anybody saying the sort of ageist shit that gets spewed onto these threads time after time.

Btw, the whataboutDavidAttenboroughs have missed his point. We're not supposed to be having 4 kids not euthanising Ethel next door so those 4 kids can go and get pissed down the Albert Dock.

[quote MotherMood]@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

does being a compassionate society mean keeping the elderly alive for as long as possible just because we can?

Dignity and compassion for the elderly has been sacrificed due to medical advancement as far as I'm concerned.
Too many people are kept alive just too sit in soiled nappies in care homes wondering who they are and where they are. [/quote]
Ageist and offensive.

@Trackandtrace

No restrictions equals the virus spreadung out of control. This will lead to hospitals becoming overun and people unable to recieve medical treatment for covid, falls, RTC, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, flu and anything else. Huge numbers of employees from every sector off sick with covid... meaning shops not properly staffed, distribution and delivery nit at normal levels l, production of goods not at normal levels meaning a lack of goo available even if shops are open. NHS staff off sick meaning the medical care is further compromised. Fire service with staff off sick meaning fires, RTC become more risky to life and property. Police service with staff shortages crime rises with no consequences. Utility companies with staff shortages, cant be maintained or repair problems as quick as normal so people without utility for longer than normal.

Yes lets do that that will be better for the youngsters

This!!!

[quote RubyandBen]@amusedtodeath1
**I remember the miner's strike, the three day week, blackouts all the time. I remember the massive unemployment, the families literally starving.

You know nothing**

Seriously? I'm 46 I remember all of this too and I live in a mining area. How can you compare that with what's currently going on?[/quote]
You must have a very good memory. Because you were a baby for the 3 day week if you're 46.

On a macro level this world is overpopulated. Why we think we can control a virus and never die is beyond me.

I totally agree with you.

@Porcupineinwaiting

I'd quite like to see Ecosse produce some data to back up her claims that 'many' elderly people have had enough of restrictions. Because although I dont know a single elderly person who wants to live like this , I dont see many casting asides their masks and skipping off to make the final sacrifice either. The only two elderly people I know who've basically said "sod it, let's just enjoy ourselves whilst we can" both have terminal diagnoses. And even they're only seeing family freely, they're not off down the pub.

Oh, they'll all start with their "my nan says" anecdotes now. It makes them feel better that they'd quite like Nan to shuffle off this mortal coil. They've probably already measured the curtains.

@TheKeatingFive

On a macro level this world is overpopulated. Why we think we can control a virus and never die is beyond me.

I totally agree with you.

What's the fucking point of a national health service then? Honestly the drivel being posted is awful.

Oh, they'll all start with their "my nan says" anecdotes now.
It makes them feel better that they'd quite like Nan to shuffle off this mortal coil. They've probably already measured the curtains.

As someone who lost their "Nan" a few days ago, this is a vile comment.

What's the fucking point of a national health service then?

Certainly not to ‘control’ a virus and eradicate all death from it.

It’s not a realistic aim.

We need to come to terms with that, just as we have come to terms with the fact that we don’t prevent all cancer deaths, all RTA deaths, all meningitis deaths, all flu deaths,

I could go on.

No and anyone who thinks this is disgusting.

It makes them feel better that they'd quite like Nan to shuffle off this mortal coil. They've probably already measured the curtains.

This is spectacularly shitty.

DappledOliveGroves
You make a really good point. We must start thinking more about quality over quantity of life, and about palliative care. The latter, to be fair, has improved vastly over the last decade or so, but the former seems to be part of a debate we are too squeamish to have. Unfortunately the 'life at all costs' debate has also been hijacked by the clickbait nature of social media - which makes difficult ethical discussions very hard to have. When I see the old trope about "you wouldn't say that if it were your mother", I am baffled by how few people seem to have dealt first hand with the horrors sometimes inflicted by old age.

@TheKeatingFive

On a macro level this world is overpopulated. Why we think we can control a virus and never die is beyond me.

I totally agree with you.

Fine but don’t volunteer other peoples lives for population control purposes.

You crack on putting DNR’s on your own medical records if you’re that passionate about it.

@Jrobhatch29

**Oh, they'll all start with their "my nan says" anecdotes now. It makes them feel better that they'd quite like Nan to shuffle off this mortal coil. They've probably already measured the curtains.**

As someone who lost their "Nan" a few days ago, this is a vile comment.

Yes, and as someone who lost their mother recently I agree that the ageism and eugenics spouted by many is deplorable.