Is the North being thrown to the wolves?

[DilemmaDerby]

All those buying cities that were in growth Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds. A big red splotch over Yorkshire when parts are fine.

Not a theorist, total compliance at the beginning, but with the edicts of no non-essential travel in and out. It’s all going a bit Hunger Games for my liking!

The problem is, it's starting to seem like much of the North was needlessly locked down in March/April when it should have been largely London and the South East. This is quite feasibly their first real wave but people's tolerance for restrictions was used up earlier in the year when it perhaps wasn't really necessary.

I think this is completely true, but that, as my grandmother used to say 'two wrongs don't make a right'. We knew less then and so a national lockdown could have been thought be right now but it was wrong with hindsight - and there's no reason to repeat the mistake in the name of 'fairness'.

What is an issue of equity is the reluctance to acknowledge and act on the areas of London with high transmission rates, and I think it's right to point out that this seems wrong and unfair. But locking down, say, the south-west or East Anglia now as a sort of revenge doesn't solve anything.

Not as much as poor Leicester who had severe restrictions for far lower numbers and still have them despite being lower than cities with none.

The reality is people didn't comply with distancing, that's why they are in a pickle. I'm elsewhere and at 10pm the streets aren't full unlike the photos of Liverpool

To be fair those photos of Liverpool streets full at 10pm were misleading. The police dispersed that group quickly and the city centre was empty by 10:30. I would imagine most city centres would be the same.

I am in Liverpool. Very few are complying. Government gave us a chance and we didn't listen. If anything people started going out more.
Town is packed, pubs are packed and everyone is mixing, pubs aren't closing at 10pm. No one will wear a mask. Only got ourselves to blame.
Let's keep our friends and family safe and just follow the rules. The sooner we do, hopefully the sooner we can get back to normal!

Yes fashu it was more like lock in Liverpool that lock down and I doubt this will be any different. Liverpool won’t be told what to do by the tories.

@Ylvamoon

Not in the North, but feeling for you all. I think lockdown should be more by postcode than country/ wider area...

Fully agree. We were caught in the increased restrictions a month or so back despite low numbers in our town. We were caught because of the county council we were in which included some pretty badly affected towns, but 30+ miles away from us. Towns in the same county with higher rates than our town weren't locked down because they weren't in the same "county council" - they had their own councils. Absolutely crazy that lockdowns are being determined according to which council you're part of rather than at a town or county level.

Absolutely, I've seen similar pictures in the SW, and London too. We keep on blaming the failure on people not keeping to the rules- but maybe the rules don't work.

We've been very compliant. In September, we worked from home, SD, masks, careful hygiene but DH still got a bad cold ( no cough/fever so no test). Maybe measures don't stop viruses spreading when spread is predominantly in schools, workplaces, hospitals and care settings.

I’m in Exeter and our local news/phe have spent much of this week reassuring the community that we won’t be put under increased restrictions, because the cases are predominantly in the student population.

It remains to be seen what is actually announced later today, but I don’t see how they can justify putting northern university cities under lockdown and not applying the same restrictions here. It would be very unfair.

@timeforawine

I'm in the North and complying with the rules. The students i see lined up outside bars and filling the streets at 10pm clearly aren't though over half the cases where i live are students. Close the uni's, refund them some of their fee's/accommodation and do the whole thing online for the foreseeable future.

Have to agree. Uni students have been conned into paying their Uni halls/flats rent. It's blatant money grabbing by the Unis. They conned students into thinking there'd be at least some face to face teaching etc., which in many cases simply isn't happening. Courses that could have been done remotely (and in fact are being done remotely) should have told students to stay at home. Only courses where physical presence is needed should have been telling students to attend Uni. Now we're in this state, students should be given the option of returning home and getting a refund on their student accommodation costs. Trying to keep students at Uni for the rest of the year is stupid when there's little or no need for them to be there. It's about time Unis were honest enough to say that there'll be next to no personal teaching for most courses.

The govt need to step in and support Unis financially - it'll cost less to do that than suffer the financial consequences of more lockdowns.

Yes.

There is no point in more restrictions when the current ones are not being enforced.

The rumour is that pubs which serve food will be allowed to stay open whilst pubs which don't aren't. So the argument seems to be around enforcement rather than setting again.

Which makes no sense if they are also shutting gyms because they are concerned about the spread indoors. There is no alcohol served in gyms.

If it is about setting and the spread indoors then the rumoured restrictions are thst restaurants will stay open... Then that makes no sense.

And we still have not mentioned the role of the utterly appalling test and trace system and any of the numerous fuck ups.

There are still lots of places where social mobility and access to a test centre is impossible because people can't drive. That leaves postal tests as the only option. But these are slow so if someone is positive the people who they were know they were in close contact with have already been spreading it, if they have caught it, through no fault of their own and having done everything right.

That is of course if they are even contacted by tracers... Because the system is so crap.

And then we havent discussed the ridiculously have positivity rates which suggest that the virus is a lot more widespread than we know about.

The north is suffering because of the lack of compentance in government over testing and tracing, the people who have complied are being punished for the lack of enforcement and failure of testing and tracing and the politics of where should stay open over the science of where its actually spreading is fucking farcial.

This is all feeding a lack of trust in government and a feeling of sticking two fingers up at the rules leading to a breakdown in voluntary conpliance.

These new restrictions wont work because the government isnt addressing the underlying problems.

This is risking mass employment and civil disobedience which could come in the form of anything from illegal raves, mass back garden parties, to speakeasies where other criminal activity is likely to occur and clashes with police in the form of both drunken dickheads and organised protest.

I despair tbh.

@cathyandclare

We can't send students home, we'll spread it everywhere then! 42.5% of students tested positive in one Manchester study, at that rate the student population will soon have herd immunity ( at least in the short term) and infections will level off.

Plenty of Unis were infection numbers are a lot lower and it's being controlled with specific flat/hall lockdowns. Trouble is the lockdowns may be too successful. In my son's flat, there are 8 students. One idiot caught covid by partying. The other 7 are in 2 weeks isolation, but none of them have caught it. It would be a good time to suggest that those 7 go back home. If they don't, it's inevitable one of them will catch it, and then there'll locked down for another 14 days, potentially none of the others getting it. Then, when out of lockdown, inevitable another will get it, so another 2 weeks. They could be in and out of lockdown for several months if they catch it one by one. That's no quality of life. 2 weeks isolation is bad enough. I know for a fact that they won't all comply again and again. Just send the poor sods home and give them a refund for the accommodation costs.

I'm one of those that don't believe the figures, but not a conspiracist, just think they don't know what they are doing.
However, I agree that Liverpool is bad.
My dh took some work there yesterday, he had to as we are going skint, no business since march.
What should have been 50 min top journey took him about an hour and a half.
He said he wondered where everyone was going and when he got to the City Centre, he said he found his answer.
It was heaving and he was worried as no social distancing at all.
I must admit recently have seen the same in Manchester.

Yes, but large parts been thrown to the wolves since the 1980s at least. The government seem to be now conducting a bizarre social experiment, not by design but by sheer incompetence.

Gracie

What a brilliant way of putting it I've said similar but am accused of being a conspiracist, you are right, completely true.
Nothing has improved much from Thatchers time.
Although, there was a slight glimmer when some finance was moved up to Leeds. Nothing else materialised.

What's frustrating is that the infection rates per 100,000 of some of the London boroughs (BJ's included) are higher than a lot of the rates that northern places had when their local restrictions were imposed, but yet THEY have no restrictions.

That may change tonight, but it sometimes seems like they are willing to overlook the capital in order to keep it running 'as normal' but don't have quite the same consideration for cities in the north.

They are too dumb for it to be a conspiracy @Devlesko, it's just incompetence.

@MereDintofPandiculation

Would you be happier to comply if it was needlessly the entire country? Illogically, yes. Compliance is good where I am, mask wearing, no large gatherings etc. Since early March I have seen my son once, my father for 5 mins through a window, and seen friends outside three times. It would be tolerable if it were the same for everybody, but difficult seeing people on MN saying "of course you can see friends". And now we're getting a stream of smug posts saying "well it's your own fault".

I agree with this post 100%

@drumst1ck

What's frustrating is that the infection rates per 100,000 of some of the London boroughs (BJ's included) are higher than a lot of the rates that northern places had when their local restrictions were imposed, but yet THEY have no restrictions.

That may change tonight, but it sometimes seems like they are willing to overlook the capital in order to keep it running 'as normal' but don't have quite the same consideration for cities in the north.

They've cocked it up by looking at local authority areas rather than specific towns and counties. If a LA area breaches the numbers, the whole LA area is subject to new measures. That's even if the numbers clearly show it was just one town causing the spike. So, LA areas with several towns spread apart with different rates are counted as the same and subject to the same. You can have counties were some areas are in measures but others aren't - towns with high numbers not in measures, but towns with low numbers that are - just by virtue of LA boundary lines. It's absolutely crazy.

It's happening in the context of a general wider throwing of the north to the wolves. We are seeing the cumulative impact of a trend that has been going on for a long time. RedToothBrush's post provides a useful summary.

I personally think Andy Burnham & Labour have not done Manchester any favours.

From the start the Labour run areas, saw it as a chance to start posturing/giving it the big I am, against the government. The financial package wasn't enough even though everyone got the same. They were publically shaming the government at every turn & I believe this created an us and them attitude that has contributed to people not complying. I think Andy Burnham has his eyes set on jumping ship & running for PM in the future.

I'm not a tory voter, we have to accept there will be a contraction in the economy & jobs will be lost, DWP aren't recruiting thousands of work coaches for nothing, it's because huge amounts of people across the country are & will lose their jobs.

No amount of finger pointing & peeing contests are going to change that.

Burnham calling out the government for having taken decisions over the head of local leadership and doing all he can to try and get legal guarantees for financial support is exactly what the Mayor of Greater Manchester should be doing. There's no evidence that this has led to more division or a drop in compliance. Worth noting as well, speaking of party politics, that this hasn't just happened in the north. The government have excluded Sadiq Khan too. It isn't posturing for elected mayors to expect to be included in decision making processes rather than finding out about them in The Times. It's them doing their jobs.

Very nice @JammyDodgerz1 completely agree with you.
I was only thinking last night, wouldn't it be great if political parties could put all their campaigning behind them for a while and work with government to find the best solution! This isn't the time to get your arguments in for the next election. I would be more likely to vote for someone who can demonstrate what they can do for us. Politicians in my area are complaining about Central Government but not telling us what they would do to make it better!

I was only thinking last night, wouldn't it be great if political parties could put all their campaigning behind them for a while and work with government to find the best solution!

How do you think this could be achieved when the government has excluded local politicians from decision making? Not even just Labour ones, although obviously disproportionately, but there are northern Tory MPs who are pissed off about the over-centralised approach and complaining. So what mechanism is there for eg Andy Burnham to work with central government if they don't want to work with him?

@JammyDodgerz1

I personally think Andy Burnham & Labour have not done Manchester any favours.

From the start the Labour run areas, saw it as a chance to start posturing/giving it the big I am, against the government. The financial package wasn't enough even though everyone got the same. They were publically shaming the government at every turn & I believe this created an us and them attitude that has contributed to people not complying. I think Andy Burnham has his eyes set on jumping ship & running for PM in the future.

I'm not a tory voter, we have to accept there will be a contraction in the economy & jobs will be lost, DWP aren't recruiting thousands of work coaches for nothing, it's because huge amounts of people across the country are & will lose their jobs.

No amount of finger pointing & peeing contests are going to change that.

Started long before that with Sturgeon not working with Boris on agreeing restrictions back in March, purely for political point scoring.

fashnu totally agree the communication is all problem & not solution based, profile raising publicity stunts. I don't see Andy/GMCA/Labour coming up with an alternative plan of action, that is tailored to our region or even showing willing to work towards one. Truly dismal.