It feels like people on MN are willing schools to close

[Marcellemouse]

Lots of threads being really negative about schools reopening. These have been largely started by teachers, the latest one being about a gagging order on the BBC. My 2 and every other DC I know are thriving on schools opening again. DS actually stands a chance of doing well and getting back on track with GCSES. DC are happy and animated again. Their teachers have been fantastic, I'm massively impressed. Friends of mine who are secondary teachers are positive and happy to be back teaching in school instead of home learning. I just get a different vibe in RL than on MN about schools. What's the reality?

@Codexdivinchi what was the point of that post against noble, unless it was just to make you look like a twat

[quote herecomesthsun]@Byallmeans

It would be really interesting to write down the measures put in place in Italy (costing 2.9 billions euros) and the measures put in place in the UK (no funding allocated) and get teachers over 50, from both countries, to vote which system they would prefer.

My hunch is that the detailed and thoughtful provision in Italy would win, albeit it still involves a job coming into direct contact with people in a pandemic. So It's understandable that even Italian teachers are a bit apprehensive.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter how much money the Italian Gov have spent - the teachers hate it! They don’t think it’s very thoughtful, hundreds of teachers have written to the gov to ask to be exempt.. They have to have two doctors to sign them off exempt from going back to work and then it needs to be very very serious illness, according to the article they can’t even get in to see a doctor.

So no point in gushing about ‘inspiration’ of the Italians when the teachers there hate it just as much as UK teachers.

@herecomesthesun, May I just say a big thank you for your posts on this and other threads?
Appreciate the time you put in supporting us.

How would it help for me to apologise to you because you felt your school wasn’t doing enough during lockdown. It would be far more productive for you to have that conversation directly with your school?

I am not asking you to apologise to me. The expression I used was one of sympathy.

As may have have been covered, a parent has very little influence over decisions made by a school in my experience.

Also the Italian teachers want to be tested everyday. So all the money and the guidelines have done nothing to quell the fear.

[quote CallmeAngelina]**@herecomesthesun, May I just say a big thank you for your posts on this and other threads?
Appreciate the time you put in supporting us.[/quote]
But it’s not true

In RL the Italian teachers are just as scared as the UK ones.

Ok, well as someone who isn't a teacher, I am really sorry you had a tough time.

Thank you.

@bigbumbiggerheart

Really good news today that Chris whitty confirmed that the infection rate in children is not increasing...... Current rise in cases despite schools being back young adults as the largest group

Well, I'd like to see the background to that statement, as there has also been emerging evidence that children's symptoms present differently from adults (tummy upsets, headaches and sore throats) but they are unable to get tests unless they have one of the Big Three.

Certain posters have been negative about schools reopening for their own reasons

Which posters?

@Byallmeans
I had seen the article you posted funnily enough.

Here is a more positive article about the Italian re-opening of schools.

As I said before, you can't please everyone, but the level of planning that went into school re-opening in Italy is impressive, and I was really pleased to see that they have been doing relatively well in keeping infection levels down.

And I certainly think we could learn from some of the practical measures they have implemented.

I don't think the Italian teachers were complaining because too much had been done to make things safe.

Chris whitty confirmed that the infection rate in children is not increasing

The BBC are reporting that he said the rate of transmission among children is not changing very much. That’s not the same as the infection numbers.

Also, the graph broken down by age group was for the test positivity percentage, which will be low if lots of children with colds are being tested.

I can’t actually find anything from today that tells us about the numbers of infections in children.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/923117/2020-09-30_COVID-19_press_conference_slides_.pdf

[quote herecomesthsun]@Byallmeans
I had seen the article you posted funnily enough.

Here is a more positive article about the Italian re-opening of schools.

As I said before, you can't please everyone, but the level of planning that went into school re-opening in Italy is impressive, and I was really pleased to see that they have been doing relatively well in keeping infection levels down.

And I certainly think we could learn from some of the practical measures they have implemented.

I don't think the Italian teachers were complaining because too much had been done to make things safe.[/quote]
Right so your choosing to side with the article written by an American who has friends in Italy rather than believing how actual Italian teachers feel about it and living it

We are very, very concerned,” said Valentina Balsamo, a 61-year-old who teaches at the Nicolò Garzilli primary school in Palermo. “I understand that schools must reopen, but as a teacher I don’t feel safe

I’ll soon take a serology test, but we all know that I should be tested every day to make sure I have not contracted the virus,” said Dora Novara, 66, who teaches at a primary school. “Given my age, I’ll also take a seasonal flu shot, but I can’t control what my students do when they return home after school.”

Meanwhile, hundreds of teachers with health problems or who are immunosuppressed recently wrote letters to school authorities asking that they be exempt from service

We know there are many cases of teachers with health issues who are afraid,” added Gissi. “But the circular from the ministry of health made it clear – doctors must certify absence, it’s not the teacher who decides if they are vulnerable or not.”
But teachers have been struggling to get certificates from their medics. “For days, I’ve been trying to reach my doctors to prepare a formal declaration, but it’s impossible,” said Sabrina Leo, 51, a preschool teacher who has emphysema, a respiratory disease

Italian teachers are not happy regardless what the Gov has done.

@Byallmeans

No, what I am saying is that Italy has done a better job of planning for the re-opening of schools than the UK.

Which it has.

And you are saying that Italian teachers are volubly still very unhappy about going back to work. Which they may well be.

That still does leaves Italian provisions for the return to school much better planned than English ones, even if the Italian teachers are sill unhappy about working in a pandemic.

They are 2 different issues.

I can’t actually find anything from today that tells us about the numbers of infections in children.

Actually I can, the graph of estimated rate of new infections per 100,000 does seem to be showing increases, albeit from a lower base.

But they haven’t done a better job because teachers are still scared.

They are scared in the UK and scared in Italy.

Death scares people so no matter how much money you throw at something it’s not going to take that fear away. It’s a big issue for Italy considering over 50% of its teachers are over 67. And IMO it would be exactly the same here although I don’t think the U.K. would insist on having to have two doctors exempt you.

@Byallmeans

Yes, death scares people. I completely sympathise with the teachers in Italy who feel scared. Another factor is that the Italians have some relatively older teachers.

But you do realise we have teachers in the UK who were formerly shielding who are back teaching actually hundreds of students in some cases, without the protective measures that the Italian teachers have. In real terms, the English teachers are going to be more at risk, all other things being equal, even if their union organisation is less effective.

However, the point being made earlier on this thread, was what measures have been put in place elsewhere that we could consider adopting.

In Italy these have included buying a lot of single user desks, getting additional premises, they have put in place psychological support, they have much smaller classes, they use masks. These are all really good ideas that we would well to adopt.

I would also point out that our teachers have much less access to testing. All Italian teachers were tested before going back to school - that would reduce the chance of cross infection from colleagues.

I read somewhere that the rapid testing used in Italian airports may be brought into Italian schools. (I don't know how far they got with that)

Yes, you are quite right, it is still scary teaching in a pandemic, even with relatively good health and safety..But all these Italian ideas will actually make the situation safer, these are still good measures from which we could learn.

@Byallmeans

But they haven’t done a better job because teachers are still scared.

They are scared in the UK and scared in Italy.

Death scares people so no matter how much money you throw at something it’s not going to take that fear away. It’s a big issue for Italy considering over 50% of its teachers are over 67. And IMO it would be exactly the same here although I don’t think the U.K. would insist on having to have two doctors exempt you.

50% of teachers are over 67? This is intriguing I googled and only got 11.1% over 60. It was a few years ago though. Have you got a link?

Guardian link again

According to this, 17% Italian teachers are over 60.

This is still high though.

My suspicion is that the allowances made in the UK for previously shielding teachers are less generous than those they appear to have in Italy. But I am sure other posters would have a better idea about this.

As may have have been covered, a parent has very little influence over decisions made by a school in my experience

Of course... individually...as how would that work...just how would a school meet the individual decisions taken to meet the needs of 500 different families???
Feedback as part of a majority of parents with the same view might have some influence but even this has to be balanced with the views and experience of all stakeholders and professionals involved.

I don't expect to make decisions on how the bank manager runs my bank or how my hairdresser runs her salon. I might choose something more appropriate or somewhere which meets my needs better...which I think you've done by changing schools.
My hairdresser might reconsider if most of her customers move on as that would mean her decisions weren't correct.
Have most parents in your DC's original school moved to another school?

@herecomesthsun

Guardian link again

According to this, 17% Italian teachers are over 60.

This is still high though.

My suspicion is that the allowances made in the UK for previously shielding teachers are less generous than those they appear to have in Italy. But I am sure other posters would have a better idea about this.

So that’s 67% over 50. As in that very same sentence it’s states 50% over 50 and 17% over 60. Quite alarming considering the Italian government put out a statement saying that age was not a risk factor - when we know it is

The Italian teachers were tested before school but they want testing every day - so they are still not happy. And like one of the teachers said it’s pointless the test before the start of school because they can’t control who the kids see outside of school - that’s why they want testing every day.

How are you getting that the U.K. sheilding teachers have had less generous allowances when the article clearly states that TWO doctors have to exempt the Italian teachers, the teachers are not allowed to exempt themselves and that Italian teachers are having trouble even getting to see one doctor and even then they have to have very very serious illnesses - this is why they have been writing letters to the government.

Rather than going off suspicions why don’t you listen to what the Italian teachers are actually saying.

But I agree, you can’t please every one.

Marsha www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/older-teachers-in-italy-fear-covid-19-risks-as-schools-return

It’s that amazing Mediterranean diet!

In the UK am I right the percentage of teachers over 60 is really small?

So that’s 67% over 50. As in that very same sentence it’s states 50% over 50 and 17% over 60.

My eyes 😫

Noble you must see worse at school
In my own experience there aren't many staff over 60, more promoted ones stay longer I think but at the chalkface you are likely to burn out if you go on until you're almost 70. People take early retirement if offered, or even if it's not.

Younger in UK apparently

In England (UK), teachers are, on average, 39 years old, which is lower than the average age of teachers across OECD countries and economies participating in TALIS (44 years old). Furthermore, 18% of teachers in England (UK) are aged 50 and above (OECD average 34%).

Not dismissing concerns of older or vulnerable