Why are we okay with students being locked up in their dorms?

[JKRowlingIsMyQueen]

I just heard about the students in Manchester who are not allowed to leave their dorms.

Why on earth is this allowed to happen? So the rest of us who are not students are allowed to get pissed in a pub, get on a plane and travel abroad and back etc., but if you are a student you are not allowed to LEAVE your dorms?

What science are these kind of rules following? The science of Boris needing more ammo to blame young people for spreading the virus?

I'm losing hope.

[quote mumsneedwine]@cantkeepawayforever I agree. That is exactly what should have happened. But it didn't. Hundreds of people were locked into buildings. With no right to leave. With 2 hours notice. Locked in. Denial of Liberty. I was so angry as this was worthy of a police state. Ironically the police were not involved (as they'd have known it was illegal). Private security firms enforced it. Again, really ? My grandparents fought wars go prevent this.
And to cable tie fire escapes ?? That's our kids so as parents we are angry. [/quote]
So I think we agree - that it is not WHAT has been done, so much as HOW it has been done that is the issue?

Self-isolation for all infected students and anyone where there is good reason to believe they are direct contacts, testing and then sending back home for everyone else that can be sent, alternative covid-secure accommodation, and very strict guidelines, for those who cannot return home?

My daughter is at Swansea uni. Known her flat mates for approx seven days. They are in local lockdown. Police have been coming to all the student flats to check they aren’t mixing or having parties. No face to face lectures to date. Doesn’t even know who her tutor is. A lot of money is being spent on her education.

[quote mumsneedwine]@cantkeepawayforever as Scummings proved there was NO legal need to stay home.[/quote]
The law has since changed.

It is very recent, but it IS now the law that you must self-isolate, and failure to do so is punishable through fines.

@XingMing I'm over reacting to Denial of Liberty ? Are you living in the UK ? The fundamental right to freedom is very important in a democratic society. If you don't think people being locked up illegally is an issue then I despair for our country.
This means you could be locked up for no reason at the whim of anyone. Dangerous slope to slide down.

This feels like a waking nightmare. I cannot believe we live in a country where students are locked in their rooms with no food, a country where it is actually illegal to sing and dance in pubs, where music isn't allowed over a certain level and where neighbours and friends are being actively encouraged to report each other for meeting their own family members in their own homes. And even crazier, that these measures are fucking WELCOMED! If this is what we have to do to avoid catching covid I really would rather take my chances with the virus. The way people have turned on each other has genuinely shocked me.

@cantkeepawayforever you asked about the start of lockdown ??? And no the law hasn't changed. Laws are made by Parliament and they have not voted on any of this. If challenged I doubt any of these new 'laws' could be upheld.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482

I thuink what is much less clear is the legal status of those told to self-isolate by those organisations to which the Government has de facto delegated test and trace responsibilities but no powers, for example schools and universities.

Universities and schools are required to use their knowledge to identify close contacts, but it is not clear to me whether an instruction to self-isolate due to being a close contact coming from a school [which has, for example, studied the seating plans and identified those close by] has the force of law that a phone call from rtest and trace does.

Students should be held to the same account as every other member of society. No more no less (well obviously except for Scummings).

I'm hoping Unis will get better at all this over the next few weeks. Schools have learned fast and I'm sure Unis will too. 🤞

[quote mumsneedwine]@cantkeepawayforever you asked about the start of lockdown ??? And no the law hasn't changed. Laws are made by Parliament and they have not voted on any of this. If challenged I doubt any of these new 'laws' could be upheld.[/quote]
Sorry, I must not have been clear. What i meant was, there have been repeated examples of 'mass isolation' / quarantine around outbreaks - farm in Herefordshire, factories elsewhere, cruise ships, returning flights. We know that there was no effective legal basis for individual behaviour during lockdown, but was / is there a legal basis for mass quarantine on public health grounds?

@cantkeepawayforever as a teacher I have no clue either. Every school doing different things and all they get is guidance. Nothing legal. And I don't know who the kids have spent break with or had lunch sitting next to, so all a farce anyway. Especially as they all get the bus home and then go the park in mixed year groups.
42% of all cases yesterday involved school children or workers. It's going well.

@cantkeepawayforever according to my lawyer SIL there is no law that allows mass quarantine. Thank god. Because who gets to them say who is locked in.

So the isolation of employees at the Herefordshire farm was illegal?

I am in the UK, and my DS is at uni in the UK. He was told in May that most teaching would be online, so he entered into all the contracts with his eyes wide open. He has tested positive, so is (responsibly) isolating until the quarantine period expires. He's not seeing denial of liberty; he's just accepting the rules, and accepting that he's not claiming to be exempt or above the rules. This is for herd safety, so he doesn't spread the virus further. The police are not at his door, and if he really wanted to make a break, for a walk, he probably could do so as long as he went alone.

So even if you have a group of people, living in a specific place, who are infected with e.g. plague, or anthrax, or whatever, there is no legal power at all to detain those people in a specific place to prevent transmission to the wider population, and they must be allowed to leave at will, with nobody being allowed to stop them?

MrsGradyOldLady
Exactly its horrifying.

@cantkeepawayforever

So even if you have a group of people, living in a specific place, who are infected with e.g. plague, or anthrax, or whatever, there is no legal power at all to detain those people in a specific place to prevent transmission to the wider population, and they must be allowed to leave at will, with nobody being allowed to stop them?

No, there are some legal powers but they're limited and as I understand it there are also supposed to be procedures followed. It's a high threshold. There are some good threads on twitter discussing this by Adam Wagner and David Allen Green if you're interested.

Though that's a moot point here, because the police have denied being involved and the uni are now not claiming to have the legal power to prevent students leaving.

@Zxyzoey31
I think the Economist has a paywall. Do you have a link to the article?

It's been widely reported that medical experts estimate it to be around 10%.

It's certainly worrying.
www.itv.com/news/2020-09-29/long-covid-long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-include-damage-to-heart-liver-kidneys-oxford-study-reveals

We shouldn't panic of course not but sensible precaution would be sensible.

@cantkeepawayforever, whose post are you commenting on? I've just been explicit in saying DS is complying with the rules, and ordering food deliveries to distance himself from passing it on. How much more is needed?

@cantkeepawayforever yes. It was illegal.

I've commented a lot on everyone's, Xing!

I have a DS currently at university, doing a course that cannot be done remotely, and fully prepared to weather multiple lockdowns in the course of the year (we are not expecting to see him until next Spring, unless the situation changes dramatically). In some ways he sounds very much like your son, except that he cannot cook!

[quote mumsneedwine]@cantkeepawayforever yes. It was illegal.[/quote]
Was it a sensible idea, in order to keep infections low in a very low infection area? Or would it have been reasonable and acceptable to allow them to mingle freely away from the site or leave the farm to live with people elsewhere in the area?

@XingMing mine doesn't have a timetable yet and teaching starts Monday. She has been promised face to face and was explicitly told she needed to attend Uni. Her course has parts that need practical work to pass. But how could she make a decision 12 days ago when she moved in if she didn't have a timetable ? She has been promised one thing and I hope they keep to it.

On the subject of enforcement and quarantining, I read an MP claiming earlier that Schedule 21 of the Coronavirus Act, the bit about powers and quarantine, has resulted in over 100 illegal prosecutions and not a single successful one. Which is mesmerising if true. I wish I could remember where I read it to link. It's not directly relevant to the MMU situation but perhaps of interest to people posting.

@cantkeepawayforever whether it's sensible is not the point. Most people will do the right thing if asked - as has been shown during lockdown. Students are the same. They will isolate as everyone else does if a CLOSE contact is positive - not someone they've never been near and just happens to live in a block of flats across a courtyard.
I have travelled to many countries where the right to lock people up for no reason is normal. It's scary. And history tells us these things start with people allowing it to happen.
All it takes for evil to win is for good men (or woman) to do nothing. I will not do nothing.