Sorry, but for me this is the opposite from heartwarming. It makes me feel more hopeless then ever

[JKRowlingIsMyQueen]

I'm referring to what's going on in this photo. We know the vast majority of young and healthy people are unaffected by the virus and that most of deaths were old people in care homes.

So with all these lockdowns, restrictions and ruining the economy we are prolonging their life, right? Only for them to spend the end of their life alone with no in person contact with their family and friends.

Elderly people should have a choice whether they want to hang out in the same room with their own spouse for gods sake. This is elder abuse imo.

Now drag me for being "selfish" all you want but this is not okay.

@EmptyFrogBarrel

Well you don’t know what the woman’s choice is, do you? She might, you know, want to live. And also, except in local lockdown areas, people can visit their relatives in care homes.

It isn’t only local lockdown areas, our county stopped care home visits again a few weeks ago despite our cases being at the lower end

The most important things are keeping our vulnerable alive and keeping the NHS going.
Depends what you mean re vulnerable.
A 50 year old with underlying conditions or a 90 yr old with severe dementia which means they spend every day questioning why they are there? Where are thier children that they still believe are school kids? Hallucinating? In constant pain? Unable to recognise thier family or own situation? Sitting screaming all day?

I worked in eldey/dementia care for donkeys years and there is a difference between a good quality of life - we went out, cooked, baked played games, reminisced etc with residents who could participate or watch and just existing -. needing fed, frequently refusing food, permanently miserable and restless needing many more drugs to keep them alive.
The nhs kicked out all thier elderly vulnerable patients which is why there was such an explosion of infections in care homes. Many hospitals are basically empty, I know staff who have to go into work and do absolutely nothing and this has gone on for months they are fed up to the back teeth of it. The nhs only needs saving by the gov investing in it not because actual patients use it.

People seem to have forgotten death is part of life. Prolonging someone's painful, lonely, confused and often extremely frightening life for selfish reasons is inhumane.

The nhs kicked out all thier elderly vulnerable patients which is why there was such an explosion of infections in care homes. Many hospitals are basically empty, I know staff who have to go into work and do absolutely nothing and this has gone on for months they are fed up to the back teeth of it. The nhs only needs saving by the gov investing in it not because actual patients use it.

People seem to have forgotten death is part of life. Prolonging someone's painful, lonely, confused and often extremely frightening life for selfish reasons is inhumane.

Spot on! Time for the NHS hero-worship to stop. It's had it, decades of waste and underfunding and stop being so narrow minded you believe the only alternative to the NHS is a US style system. Nearly every other thread on this board from people being utterly failed by the NHS, more and more often quiet dangerously so, is 'can you pay to go private' or people who've already had to to private to get vital care.

And Covid is not, and has never been, 100% fatal.

@M0mmzee

I so agree with you. I wasn’t allowed to see my Dad who was in a nursing home, during the whole of March, April and May. The only thing that had been keeping him going were my visits and I visited often. He had vascular dementia but always knew who I was. It was heartbreaking as he died at the end of May not understanding why I wasn’t coming to see him. By the time I was allowed in to be with him when he was dying I don’t know if he was aware I was there. I talked to him as he passed and continued for a bit in case his hearing was still there. It was devastating not only because of that but also because my Mum was in the same nursing home with Alzheimer’s Disease and I wasn’t allowed to go and be with her and break it to her until about a fortnight later. By the time I was allowed a weekly visit to her with full PPE she showed no recognition of me at all. 😢😢 The thing is, Dad was 90 and Mum is 88. They were/are far advanced in their dementias and it is just existing if family isn’t allowed in often enough. I’m sure given the choice that they would have wanted my usual visits despite the risk to them. 🤔🤔

I'm so sorry for your loss. That is heartbreaking.

My DMum is 88 and lives with my sisters busy family of young adults and their partners. There are 7 of them in their home.
She is high risk, as several work front line.
However she has chosen to stay there as she thrives on being part of all the bustle, being "needed", bless her, she answers the phone and takes in parcels.
She listens to them having a moan about their jobs, on a good day she might bake them a pie.
She watches things like the voice with them all.
It would be unthinkable to tear her away from that.
Her philosophy is what is the point of prolonging a life if there's is no enjoyment in it? She is an ex ward sister herself, she knows the risks and has chosen never to go into hospital if she catches it.
What is happening is tragic.
We arent killing them with covid, we are killing them through broken hearts.

That's so sad.

This isn't a criticism of carers, I think that most of them do an amazing job for shit money, however, carers can go to pubs, restaurants, cinemas etc, thier children are back at school mixing with other kids, they can see five other people from different households, but those in thier care cannot have a single visitor.

What about the elderly's right to life? Shouldn't they be protected at all costs rather than put at risk of a premature and possibly painful death?
Or, do you want to kill off all the old people?

There are two different things here . Care home residents and the elderly living at home . If they are not in a care home you can form a bubble or make your own choices for vunerable people , but a care home is a completely different matter and I really feel for the staff who work there trying to manage this . Damned if you protect the residents , damned if you don’t .

@Serin

My DMum is 88 and lives with my sisters busy family of young adults and their partners. There are 7 of them in their home. She is high risk, as several work front line. However she has chosen to stay there as she thrives on being part of all the bustle, being "needed", bless her, she answers the phone and takes in parcels. She listens to them having a moan about their jobs, on a good day she might bake them a pie. She watches things like the voice with them all. It would be unthinkable to tear her away from that. Her philosophy is what is the point of prolonging a life if there's is no enjoyment in it? She is an ex ward sister herself, she knows the risks and has chosen never to go into hospital if she catches it. What is happening is tragic. We arent killing them with covid, we are killing them through broken hearts.

That's lovely, Serin. She sounds like one of the family (which she is of course).

This thread is making me glad to have mum a 5 min walk away.

@serin , but that’s fine and a good solution. But it is not a care home with many other residents is it?

My mother had to go into hospital with a stroke in April and it was so difficult not being able to visit . Luckily she was treated extremely well , and everyone was very caring and communicated well with us and she came home with a full care package . She is 87 . So we were lucky that she was looked after and is home and I consider my parents as vunerable and we continue to visit , but we social distance and wear masks to protect them .luckily they understand why.

Yes, this is a sad photo. Of course it is.

But my MIL is in a care home. Covid ripped through care homes in the spring. Once it's in a home, you can't contain the infection unless you isolate everyone and don't have any carers actually, you know, caring for them.

My MILs care home is doing absolutely the right things to keep people safe. If your desire to see your loved ones trumps that, then take them out of the care home and take them back to yours.

I couldn't agree more, OP. That poor couple, unable even to touch each other.

My mother of 96 with dementia went into a care home last year and initially it seemed to be going very well; the staff were lovely, she had much more to do and more people to talk to, and generally seemed much happier. Since March it's all gone downhill. When I was eventually able to visit on a socially distanced basis she was confused and distressed, had difficulty recognising me in a mask, couldn't hear me anyway, and couldn't understand why I couldn't sit nearer or take her out. Her hearing and vision which were deteriorating anyway have deteriorated yet further so that realistically she can't read, watch TV or listen to the radio. Unless the hard-pressed carers are talking to her she has no stimulation whatsoever all day - and she doesn't really understand them when they're wearing masks anyway.. In theory I can contact her by Zoom but she can't see or hear it and doesn't understand what's going on. Last time I saw her - sitting outside a window opened around an inch like the man in the picture - she was shouting that she hated it and she wanted to die. The home has now gone back into lockdown as they had a Covid case, so goodness only knows when or if I'll ever see her again.

I know there are no easy answers, and I would be devastated to lose my mother. However, for the first time in my life I seriously wonder whether the right to life is actually paramount for someone like her, and whether in her situation I would want to live.

Don’t forget it’s not just the elderly. It’s vunerable adults in homes as well . But if some want visits and others want to protect their loved ones , what is the answer ?

Don’t forget in spain they actually found the elderly abandoned in care homes . And Italy they lost a lot of elderly relatives because they tend to live in multigenerational homes ?

I am old (74) and my husband is 76. I have a couple of underlying conditions but in daily life am healthy.
We have thought about this very carefully and have decided we are prepared to take the risk rather than lock ourselves away.
One of our grandsons stays overnight with us every week. He is a weekly boarder and it helps him get through the week to have a night with us. This will not change.
We are also driving to Spain in a couple of weeks as we have a holiday home there and haven't been for a year. We will drive through France in one day so we don't have to quarantine.
Some may think we are stupid but for us life isn't worth living unless we can see family. Of course if that becomes forbidden we will abide by it.
We have thought of all the possible consequences and have decided to be sensible but live our lives without fear.

@ceto

It is a horrible situation , so what would you like to see happen that you think is practical ? Are visits with masks etc better than nothing ? Or should someone provide clear masks so they can see all of your face ? And gloves ?

@Buddywoo

That’s great but that does not sound like a situation where you are going to pass it on to thirty other people does it ?

And also, except in local lockdown areas, people can visit their relatives in care homes
This is untrue. My grandmothers care home is not in a local lockdown area, however cases are on the rise, so they have stopped all visits. She was only allowed one visitor per week and it had to be the same one each time, but it was something. Now, nothing once again.

I think modern medicine and treatment (not just covid) sometimes just prolong suffering for everyone. Fighting to prolong the life of someone with end state cancer for example, so they can just spend a few more days in excruciating pain
I also agree very much with this. I’ve had a bit of a row with my parents as I am so upset that my dgm is living her last months/years without us with her. She would hate to think how her life was anyway with dementia and she would absolutely HATE to think that her dgc had missed 6 months of education And living to ‘protect’ her. She would not consider this a life worth living. Her family are/were everything to her. Not seeing us must be so horrendous for her. (Even though she has dementia and is non verbal now, she still had capacity to remember that we were hers, even if she couldn’t quite place us in the family tree).

[quote countrygirl99]@repeatswan. Hate to breakit to you but a lot of the elderlydie of pneumonia or sepsis even without covid. Why is it better that they have been deprived for months of what, formant, is the only source of joy in their lives. Why is it better for so many with dementia or mobility issues to shut down and give up life?[/quote]
What do you get to decide that for them by deciding not to distance any more?

And you don't need to 'break it to me', my family members died in a range of ways. We all know about death.

@loutypips

What about the elderly's right to life? Shouldn't they be protected at all costs rather than put at risk of a premature and possibly painful death? Or, do you want to kill off all the old people?

It's not as simple as that for the elderly because realistically many of them might never live to see normality again. So you're depriving them of love and comfort and they will die a lonely death of some other cause anyway.

"People seem to have forgotten death is part of life. Prolonging someone's painful, lonely, confused and often extremely frightening life for selfish reasons is inhumane."

So they should just be collateral so that those who want visitors can have them?

@Zany15

I'm a grandmother and I see my granddaughter twice a week. If this Covid goes on, I could be dead of something else and never have seen her. There are some things I'll risk. I may regret it, but that's how I feel just now. She lights up my life and the hardest part of the March lockdown was not being able to see her.

Yy this Zany15 my second grandchild was born a couple of days before lockdown, I saw her the day she was born then neither of them for three months, I’m very lucky they live close by & see them at least three/four times a week now, I cannot & will not endure no contact unless it becomes against the law, I may also regret it this decision but like you they light up my life. My sincere condolences to all you who have suffered the loss of loved ones or who are unable to see loved ones💐

There's a campaign to allow close family to provide evidence of a negative covid test and wear PPE in order to visit their loved ones. Some care homes aren't even allowing other professionals in such a chiropodists. There's an example of a woman who can't get her slippers on because no one has cut her toenails since January! It's disgusting. Care homes could arrange for family members to visit safely but some can't be arsed.

Sorry, my post should have said they might die a lonely death from some other cause.

I don't know the solution, I'm not claiming to have the answers. But I think it's far more complex than it first seems.

The issue is that they took the choice away from residents and their families, yet the carers who had close contact everyday could go shopping, meet outdoors with friends, live with someone in a 'high risk' job covid wise and then go into work with zero testing (at the time). Yes PPE, but no reason visitors couldn't wear it, since the shortage where even carers didn't have enough, there is ample. It's disgraceful, heartbreaking and I hope that those who made the decision to send them from hospitals to homes without testing is held accountable.