Here's an interesting view. Lockdown is actually extremely individualistic and throws the working class under the bus.

[Treesofwood]

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09

People all ready to gout how selfish people are for questioning or refusing lockdown, it's all about saving lives, we have to do. It for the good of the vulnerable...

Well here is an opposite view. And I think it is very very true. All the questioning about who is impacted most and why. Those cocooned in their house, incomes protected "its not stuck at home its safe at home" rubbish. Who are lockdowns (local or national) really protecting? Who are actually vulnerable? And vulnerable to covid or destitution?

I have a professional job and can work from home, but my son also delivered groceries for a living. He had to give that up to protect his shielding pregnant girlfriend and now has no job.

He's very lucky that he has family money to fall back on but most people in his situation would be really struggling. Young people are having a really tough time, and when they try to get out and do something productive like go to school or university they are accused of recklessly spreading the virus. The poor kids really cant win.

Depends how you define working class.

Lockdown has thrown creatives under a bus as well. And travel. Pilots have been made redundant.

I don't think it's a class issue at all.

I think public opinion will turn when the job losses start to happen over the next month and there will have to be a review of shielding the vulnerable which needs to be comprehensive and fully funded. I have a fairly secure job as a HCP but have friends with families who may well lose their jobs soon as they work in hospitality or entertainment or those that are related to these Industries such as pilots and architects . They are at real risk of losing their homes, not being able to feed their children and suffering mental health issues as a result. Some of these are degree educated people with previously good incomes and if I had told them a year ago they would be claiming benefits and relying on charity to feed their families they would have laughed in my face.

The lockdown is about saving the health services, and to an extent also saving other services such as social services and the police, from becoming overwhelmed to the point of collapse.

The NHS was specifically created after the war to help the vast majority of people, the working class. It improved tens of millions of peoples lives

If we had no lockdown, we would have no NHS and millions of working class people would be at risk from lack of basic health care

Without lockdown the working class would suffer much more

Aye. Most MNers are middle class but think they know what’s best for working class people.

So what do working class people think is best for them then @HelloMissus? Seeing as they all speak w one voice and you have a direct line?

@Treesofwood you made a comment yesterday about special treatment that is not being done here. You were referring to ECMO and we do have it in the UK, we just don't have that many ECMO beds so it's kept for this who clinically need it. That has nothing at all to do with class.

If class myself as middle class and cannot work from home as I have a frontline NHS job. The more people that can stay at home the better as it makes things safer for those of us that can't.

The only people I judge are those like my neighbours who completely ignore the rules and regularly have large gatherings in their house. That's got nothing to do with class at all.

porcupine who said they all speak with one voice? I didn’t.

@BatShite

Pssibly misread again! But I agree with you whichever tbh.

Said I was going to bed hours ago but got into reading this thread first, now actually going as my ability to make sense is gone!

@BatShite

I think we’re saying the same thing

We’re all 30+. Upper management, self employed or small business owners and watching everything implode around us and wondering how long we can pay the mortgage for while being told to just make it work or out jobs aren’t viable anymore so it’s our fault.

Long Covid is estimated to affect 10% of patients

Source?

Really interesting thread
I have noticed that a lot of the people I know who are most vociferous in their support of the lockdown are those who have safe public sector jobs

HMSSophie
I think the delivery people who bring my goods to my door, as I sit comfortably and safely in my home doing my MC wfh, are exposed to a shitload more people in the course of their day than I am. Covid has absolutely revealed the social inequality in the UK and it's a fucking disgrace.

Babbi
Very well said. I’m extremely fortunate to be able to WFH in a relatively secure job and live in a nice area .
I’m doing what I can to help those less fortunate around me .. donating etc .

Probably being controversial saying this but I’m disgusted at the attitude of the majority of people I come into contact with in my area

Much muttering about how unfair it is that they can’t go abroad on each of the school holidays... Easter , summer half term etc ...

They have no clue or seem to care about how much some people are struggling right now

Such inequality, it’s a scandal

I live in a similar area and I haven't seen that amongst other parents. But my MIL lives in posh area and keeps complaining and she has barely been impacted at all, has gone on lots of holidays and lots of meals out, has no financial worries and lots of outdoor space. Meanwhile, a lot of people are struggling and she cannot see outside her little bubble. It drives me up the wall but what can you do? Some people just don't have empathy for anyone else.

For me, part of the reason we should work from home if we can is to help protect people who can't, and help keep things open so they are able to go to work and keep their jobs.

I'm also horrified by the food bank statistics, it was bad enough before this and is going to get even worse. We are a rich country, it isn't right that some are struggling so much.

I agree that, as never before, it has been laid bare that some - in fact a lot of - people have zero empathy for others.

Bil and sil are absolutely holier than thou and lockdown supremos. They are vociferous about needing a long-term full lockdown. They live in a large house with large garden. Both took early retirement and have a large, secure income. No health problems. They spout their liberal views which include “lives are more important than the economy” and if businesses fail they fail. I presume they hope Waitrose and Amazon are excepted... and all the utilities employees keep working, and those growing/manufacturing the food and goods that are delivered to their door...

This pandemic has shown what an individualistic society we have. People's decisions to comply or opinions on lockdown are all about what's best for them and their family which is understandable as the government and others aren't looking out for their best interests. People seem to forget that their circumstances are probably unique and for example can't just ask their extended family to help with childcare if their kids are forced to quarantine or rely on neighbour/friend/another classmates parent to do the school run if one child is in quarantine and the other not.

Working class are inevitably going to be hit harder by COVID and Lockdown and if you're young or single then even harder. I think you can argue both ways - they are safer "serving" richer people in the most COVID secure way possible while they stay in their safe bubble with garden but also why are they shouldering more risk by going out and doing risky jobs like collecting rubbish and cleaning etc? What's also shocking is the number of times Johnson has argued against changing working laws so that employers are forced to allow employees flexibility to quarantine without punishment or dismissal fears. "Employers need to be reasonable" is not good enough. Are the working class getting the £500 payment for self isolating quickly? Is it a one time deal?

Is it really a surprise that people negatively affected by lockdown are less likely to be calling for more/stricter lockdowns? And that people less affected are more likely to want it?

I find it strange that everyone is so obsessed with labelling everyone ‘selfish’. ‘Selfish’ for wanting lockdown when it negatively impacts others, ‘selfish’ for not self isolating when they would have no income, ‘selfish’ for not wearing a mask. Of course we are selfish- ultimately we are animals. And when we are in a high risk/stressful situation we resort to being selfish to protect our families and bloodlines. I wouldn’t purposefully put anyone else in harms way but if someone held a gun to my head and asked me if I’d rather they shot 20 random people or my child I’d choose 20 people. That may be selfish but that’s a NORMAL HUMAN response. Maybe let’s all try and realise that we can try our best to look out for others but ultimately most people are just trying to protect themselves their families and their lives in these wild times.

No surprise, but so many people just won’t see any other view. If people don’t have dcs, they want schools to close. If they don’t run a business or never go out, they want restaurants to close. On the other side, some people are of the “we deserve our family holiday” mindset and are going to go abroad whatever, or, worse, are going to return and then go on a pub crawl.

'Long Covid' when the virus has only been around less than a year. It used to be called 'Post Viral Syndrome' and you could get it from any viral infection, but usually influenza. And no one called for the entire world shutting down because of it until now. And 10% of all those who test positive for Covid have it? I'd like to see a source for that, a real one.

Oh, yes, No, the 'selfish' comments. As if people care that some random thinks they're 'selfish'.

**“Is it really a surprise that people negatively affected by lockdown are less likely to be calling for more/stricter lockdowns? And that people less affected are more likely to want it?”

It’s not a surprise but what is a surprise is that those comfortably working from home in their secure job cannot seem to understand the other perspective that by protecting the smaller percentage of vulnerable people from covid, some people are becoming vulnerable themselves - not to covid but to other things such as job losses, home losses, missed education for their children if the schools were to shut again because they cannot support home schooling whilst trying to keep that job. Why does vulnerable to covid seem to trump being vulnerable in other ways? This is the problem. I don’t support another full lockdown because the company I work for probably wouldn’t survive, that doesn’t mean I don’t care about those vulnerable to covid but I have to prioritise my own job, home and children. Nobody is saying people shouldn’t wfh, but what I would like to see is those comfortably able to do so to see the other side of the coin.

I agree @Xenia

The balance of risk is off here. The long term scarring to society, the economy and our young is too high a price to pay to avoid a disease which as turned out to be less deadly than first assumed.

Ships are safe in the harbour, but that is not what ships are for!

Protect the NHS yes, total suppression no. At the height of this the NHS was not overwhelmed. The nightingale hospitals were hardly touched.

you're absolutely right op. The well off are "saving lives" sitting at home from their nice WFH jobs or happily homeschooling their children and they have no worries because there is a person on min wage or close to it delivering their shopping, another delivering their parcels, another their milk etc etc and so on and so forth. Why would you worry? (disclaimer not having a pop at anyone who WFH or SAHM etc i know a lot struggled too)

for a lot of people the reality is that if the kids are off school, jobs will be lost and it'll be a struggle to feed the kids but if you say that you get accused of not caring about anyone else and killing old people. There is a lot of ignorant priviledged individuals on MN who dont know what real life is like.

Yes, anyone who has had “real” flu, as in the one where you can’t get out of bed to get a million pounds, knows that it can take months to feel right again.

I think a lot of (lucky) people have never experienced flu, as evidenced by the NHS explaining what a temperature is, or the difference between a cold and flu. It always made me mad when people would say, “I’ve got flu” and be off shopping/MNetting, even going to the doctor. Believe me, when you have full-blown flu you are bedridden .

@EmpressoftheMundane what on earth about what's happening around us makes you think we are pursuing a policy of total suppression? We are not, we are supposed to be keeping numbers manageable. It's just that would be a hell of a lot easier with a proper test, track and trace system not the shitshow we currently are limited by.

As for the Nightingales, they weren't on line at the height of the first peak and then there were problems with staffing them I believe. And we did come uncomfortably close to running short of oxygen and did leave people at home who could have done with medical care - so v, v close to being overwhelmed.

@HMSSophie

I think the delivery people who bring my goods to my door, as I sit comfortably and safely in my home doing my MC wfh, are exposed to a shitload more people in the course of their day than I am. Covid has absolutely revealed the social inequality in the UK and it's a fucking disgrace.

After watching the Ken Loach film about zero hours contracts I resolved to tip deliverers. This was pre covid, and obviously doesn't lessen their risk, but I hope helps a little.

If there is a spectrum between keeping the NHS afloat and total suppression, we are too close to the total suppression end of the spectrum.