Here's an interesting view. Lockdown is actually extremely individualistic and throws the working class under the bus.

[Treesofwood]

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09

People all ready to gout how selfish people are for questioning or refusing lockdown, it's all about saving lives, we have to do. It for the good of the vulnerable...

Well here is an opposite view. And I think it is very very true. All the questioning about who is impacted most and why. Those cocooned in their house, incomes protected "its not stuck at home its safe at home" rubbish. Who are lockdowns (local or national) really protecting? Who are actually vulnerable? And vulnerable to covid or destitution?

Again, you’re conflating public sector jobs with being “alright jack” about other people. Almost everyone I know in public sector jobs, all the teachers and the nurses and the social workers went into those jobs precisely because they cared about their communities. Don’t people usually complain about how left wing we all are? How is it now that we have gone from commie loving lefties to peasant kicking snobs?

The world has gone a bit mad and I think we’ve seen a fair bit of “commie loving lefties” sneering, if not kicking, “peasants”. It seems the two major parties have swapped places!

Like so many things that covid is apparently 'causing' - poor mental health, poor job prospects, poor childcare system, rampant individualism - covid has just pushed the symptoms into the limelight. These problems existed before lockdown but many people could afford to ignore them because they didn't affect them. If you're worried about how covid restrictions harm the working class, you really need to go beyond thinking about merely ending lockdown, and thinking about how we change society in a much wider and deeper sense so that these sorts of precarities and income disparities are far far less prevelant

No, it seems like people are looking around for someone to blame and choosing each other. I support higher taxation, higher benefits, better health service, higher minimum wage, an end to zero hour contracts. You should support safer education, investment in public services. We are not each other’s enemies. It is not in our interests to fight each other, but it is a welcome distraction to those who rightly deserve our anger, those who have chosen to line each other’s pockets at the expense of having a functioning track and trace program that would protect all of us.

Not sure the “commies” ever loved their fellow man.

It’s true problems existed before COVID, but our reaction to COVID has caused the biggest economic crisis in 90 years. So I do think the scale of knock on effects is pretty exceptional. Most people will accept that a certain level of unemployment, mental health problems, social problem, etc. are part of the human condition because we aren’t perfect. And as long as that level seems addressable and is seen to be being reasonably addressed, they can live with it. The scale that appears to be coming if we keep on like this has many reasonable people concerned.

@Xenia
Actually any restrictions have been to protect first the economy and second the young and healthy.

Countries that have taken effective containment measures (short-term pain, long-term gain) have healthier economies than us.

It's the young and healthy who have the most to lose from Long Covid. They probably want to avoid becoming one of the Expendables.

A stricter (and therefore shorter) lockdown with restricted borders would get things back to normal far quicker than dragged out heart not in it semi on off on off measures.

Protecting the old and sick??? What, by forcing care homes to spread the infection and kill off residents take in confirmed Covid patients?
By failing to shield some of the most extremely clinically vulnerable, i.e. diabetics?

Btw, many of 'the sick' teach your children or care for you at hospital.
The workforce includes millions of people with pre-existing conditions. Our last PM, Theresa May, was one of them.

Our reaction to COVID has caused the biggest economic crisis in 90 years
More accurately, the UK's failed reaction.
(Not sure about 90 years? Wouldn't WW2 have caused quite a big economic crisis?)

Other countries - those that actually did something about it, who took effective containment meaures, are doing much better economically than us.

The Denial Ignore Pretend There's No Nasty Virus approach buggers the economy far worse longer-term than temporary preventative restrictions.

Our problem is the short-sightedness of many in the UK - unfortunately government included.

I work in a factory, minimum wage, no company sick pay.

If dh and I had to isolate for 14 days that would mean four weeks on ssp instead of normal pay. We could take a mortgage break and dd is 13 so no childcare issues. We would just manage. Vast majority of the people I work with have rent to pay, childcare, little or no savings.

Do you feed your kids or stay at home for the slim chance you may have covid?

Agree with the poster at the top of the thread. Same storm, very different boats.

So really the problem is that our safety net is sorely lacking. For a long time before Covid people had to manage (or not) on SSP or unemployment/sickness benefits. Universal credit/JSA/ESA basic rate is much lower than SSP. Lots of people are left to struggle on just £74 a week without full rent or mortgage help (still now, because the increase in benefit levels was for Covid related claims only).

The difference is these people were unfortunate enough to lose their jobs or get sick before the media glare of a pandemic, that's thrown a spotlight on the pitiful levels of state benefits.

And still people don't get it.
We face an ongoing situation with the pandemic. Dragging it out for at least a year. On, off, on, off. That's precisely why we need to do something to nip it in the bud. To save jobs and the economy.

WW2 was good for the economy in many ways as it created a huge rise in demand in certain industries. Not to mention the war was followed by a) the inauguration of the welfare state b) full employment c) huge building programmes (new homes, schools, hospitals, motorways, towns...). Would be nice if covid galvanised people to demand better for themselves...

would be nice if covid galvanised people to demand better for themselves..
Wouldn't it indeed. I don't expect it will but we can only hope.

Problem is that we won’t have the money to expand the safety net due to our COVID response. It’s not just a matter of redistribution, but having the money to redistribute in the first place! When the economy shrinks it’s harder to redistribute.

@Napqueen1234

I 100% agree OP. This ‘all in this together’ is bullshit. For a lot of people the implications of lockdown far far far outweigh the risk to covid and labelling them ‘selfish’ after months of huge sacrifice is a farce.

💯 this, in a nutshell! 👏

@TrustTheGeneGenie

you're absolutely right op. The well off are "saving lives" sitting at home from their nice WFH jobs or happily homeschooling their children and they have no worries because there is a person on min wage or close to it delivering their shopping, another delivering their parcels, another their milk etc etc and so on and so forth. Why would you worry? (disclaimer not having a pop at anyone who WFH or SAHM etc i know a lot struggled too)

for a lot of people the reality is that if the kids are off school, jobs will be lost and it'll be a struggle to feed the kids but if you say that you get accused of not caring about anyone else and killing old people. There is a lot of ignorant priviledged individuals on MN who dont know what real life is like.

Absolutely. As someone at the more cushty end of this I find it outrageous that perfectly healthy, but economically or socially vulnerable people are being forgotten or dismissed in all this.

Even comfortably off people can be vulnerable. If you earn well you may well have a big mortgage. Lose your job and what happens then?
Although I agree that those in low paid jobs will be disproportionately affected there will be problems across the board.

@FatimaMunchy

Even comfortably off people can be vulnerable. If you earn well you may well have a big mortgage. Lose your job and what happens then? Although I agree that those in low paid jobs will be disproportionately affected there will be problems across the board.

Yes. Only the very rich can afford for us to have no effective containment measures - because they can afford to take the risk of putting their short-term greed before longer-term economic health and stability.

Countries that have taken measures to effectively contain Covid are doing much better economically than us.

One of our friends had just qualified as a pilot when lockdown came in and because he wasn’t employed at that point he couldn't be furloughed. In July he found a job in retail as there was nothing else but due to lack of business he will be let go at the end of the month. Throughout all of this his dp has been supporting the family on a very average wage she works in the private sector as an administrator and she’s not confident about her job security. This is the current reality for lots of families and further lockdowns will make their situation worse.

@Msmcc1212 Are you looking at the figures that say 20% will be hospitalised, 5% will need ICU and 1% will die?

Elderly people are dying lonely and alone because of the restructions in care homes. Sitting behind screens, outside, talking through windows with relatives only allowed in at the very end.

Young people end up in ICU with flu, pneumonia, and other unexpected and sometimes avoidable illnesses and due, to accidents. We don't tell people to stop living to avoid all the risks. Just covid.

And now young people are facing a lack of work, being locked in their halls of residence, bring blamed and judged when they were the ones going into the supermarkets at 4am to pick everyone's shopping and serving people their EOTHO meals in the pubs. Being told "Don't kill Granny" when Granny is dying of loneliness and confusion alone in the care home because no one is allowed to even see her!

@SheepandCow We cannot eradicate Covid. It is endemic, and I think it's here to stay. That boat sailed. So we need to try something else. On off on off not desirable or helpful. I agree with you there..

Andromeda, agree with you and another PP. Those in the travel industry and the creative industries have also been very much thrown under the bus.

@Treesofwood Eight months of people insisting we can't, we can't, we can't is why we're in this mess.

Meanwhile other countries have taken effective action to contain Covid. Guess who has the better economies?
Their care home residents (not all are elderly btw) aren't dying alone either.

@sheepandcow Are we talking NZ here? Where else?

@Treesofwood well let's see - Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Canada, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany. And that's just off the top of my head.

It would be interesting to look at them each in turn
Japan is especially interesting.
Denmark I think may now have run into problems, although I need to check that.
Germany used that oxygenating blood machine, rather than avoiding infections so much they had a low death rate.

Im sure South Korea didn't lock down either?

I thought we were talking about "effective action" in whatever shape or form? I dont think anyone could accuse the uk of that.