Here's an interesting view. Lockdown is actually extremely individualistic and throws the working class under the bus.

[Treesofwood]

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1309030154837135362?s=09

People all ready to gout how selfish people are for questioning or refusing lockdown, it's all about saving lives, we have to do. It for the good of the vulnerable...

Well here is an opposite view. And I think it is very very true. All the questioning about who is impacted most and why. Those cocooned in their house, incomes protected "its not stuck at home its safe at home" rubbish. Who are lockdowns (local or national) really protecting? Who are actually vulnerable? And vulnerable to covid or destitution?

Pssibly misread again! But I agree with you whichever tbh.

Said I was going to bed hours ago but got into reading this thread first, now actually going as my ability to make sense is gone!

Our local Nuffield Hospital was take over for NHS cancer surgery during lockdown
Thank you for the update!!!

OP you are speaking so much sense, but the world has gone completely mad. The scale of suffering is huge, and no one gives a shit. It’s all about acting righteous about “saving lives”. None of this is based on science, no ones life was saved by lockdown, but millions of people around the globe with their lives destroyed.

If you had a choice between your life and finances what would you choose

What a ridiculous comment. It is not so black and white.
For a start the probabilities are so different. By refusing to go into work to protect yourself from the virus, for example, you're weighing a less than 1% chance of death against a 100% chance of affecting your finances. I know what I would choose.

And for the vast majority of the country, losing your job/income will affect your life drastically. Far more than covid would. You might not die from losing your job but the adverse effect on your life could be huge.

Those who think it's a obviously chose between life/finances, are those who dont have to worry about finances.

The main issue is the failed response of the UK government to establish a proper track trace and isolation programme, or to have enough testing capacity. Everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Indeed
The government have done a good job turning people against each other. It's not the governments fault cases are rising, it's the fault of young people not social distancing or old people visiting their relatives or work places which arent covid secure or "idiots" going to the pub/beach/restaurant/other.
SO many people saying "if you have 7 people at a gathering, it will take longer for the restrictions to be lifted" or similar. No that is not MY responsibility. If the government were dealing with this properly we wouldnt all be blaming each other.

Treesofwood
Walker1981 Yes. But the lockdown at any cost people are doing it to "Save lives" and are therefore the ones with the moral higher ground (they believe)

I disagree, I see people on both sides thinking their way is the right way and both sides name calling. Both sides are putting the other down, being abusive, threatening each other and falling out. Both sides are smug in their attitude and comments towards the other side.

Both sides struggle to see the perspective of the other and therefore think their way is the right way.

We live in a world where if we think one way of living is correct we abuse the others who do not follow. Regardless of what it may be. What I've seen from friends is bickering and abuse and righteousness from both sides.

@Someonetakemebackto91

I will be dropping to carers allowance so going from 32,000 a year to 64.00 a week, of shielding comes back in, lose all respite again and be doing 24 hour care.
That is a massive drop but just letting you know Carers' Allowance is now £67.25 p.w.

I totally agree with Sunetra Gupta and Martin Kulldorff. Professionals who can work at home in their comfortable family bubble have not lost much in this crisis. It hurts when people can smugly mask a selfish attitude in a cloak of righteousness.

@Pixxie7

For those saying about people they don’t know, it’s just as well our armed forces don’t think like that. They put their lives on the line to protect the country.

They're paid to and they choose to. Its not like the government force them as they did with lockdown.

@Treesofwood

Porcupineinwaiting There are plenty of people on here who think people who won't get paid to stay home with their child isolating should just suck it up. Or use their non existent savings. Obviously the person themselves cares about the situation, and saying noone was an exaggeration. Some people do care. But more people appear to care most about stamping out covid, whilst enjoying their extra time at home, and thousands saved in commuting and childcare. .

One of my friends is a nurse and she has worked with covid patients for months. She's a single parent and has been told if her sons need to isolate she will have to take unpaid leave. Its disgusting.

Jrobhatch29@ totally agree this doesn’t sound like the nhs though.

@Pixxie7

Jrobhatch29@ totally agree this doesn’t sound like the nhs though.

She is NHS. She was only telling me on Friday! She said the options were holidays or unpaid leave. She said one of her friends was already on her first period of self isolation because her sons bubble closed and was very worried it was going to keep happening.

What upsets me is 'project fear'. We had arranged a lunch recently so my 94 year old mother could meet someone she is very fond of (who is in their 50s). At the last minute the person in their 50s cried off. They had seen Doom and Gloom (aka Whitty and Valance) and their prediction of exponential rise in cases, believed it was true and become terrified to go anywhere. This person is deaf and autistic. They live alone and have no opportunity to talk things through, assess risk etc. Now they are holed up in a flat, just making trips to local shops for supplies, thinking they are safe. They might well be safe from the virus, but how can it be good for someone to have almost no contact with other human beings?
I know my mother would happily sacrifice a few extra months of life if it meant she could see people she loves.

Jrobhatch29 In that case she should contact her union or possibly even Pierce Morgan I am sure he do something about it.

I’ve had to keep working in a high risk environment since March on little more than min wage (nursery worker). As a single parent I am the only provider for my family.
This has meant my children haven’t had the support they needed to do their online school work as I’ve been out of the house much of the day. It means if I catch it was risk our only household income. I get a little in tax credits but it wouldn’t cover the bills without my earnings. I was kept on working as my boss knew I couldn’t drop to 80% income so I was grateful for that - but it also meant my family have been at higher risk of catching Covid as someone is mixing outside the home in a place without any chance of social distancing.

Fortunately we’ve not caught Covid so far but I’ve been at much higher risk than those able to work from home on what is likely a much higher wage. Those same people have been home to offer more support to their own children etc.

A lot of working class voted for Boris. Now they cry when Tories do what Tories do. Still, tax cuts eh?

Silly ‘looney left’ wanting a more equitable and fair society.

People working from home doesn't bother me, what bothers me is when they call for another lockdown. I saw one poster saying schools should close again and parents would just have to "adjust." Given that my job is not possible to do from home I have no idea how I'm supposed to "adjust". Shall I just leave my 7 year old home alone all day, or quit my job meaning that I can't pay my mortgage or feed DS?

I am really confused about all the posts on this thread that talk about the middle class WFH.

Both Dp and I WFH. Would never call either of us 'middle class'. We just happen to be in jobs that can be done remotely.

Definitely had a bit of judgment though. For example, I ran out the house the other day with the recycling bin, as I heard the bin man. I apologised and said I forgot what day it was, he replied ''You want to get yourself a job love, then you won't forget what day it is''. I replied I work 40 bloody hrs minimum per week. Cheeky sod.

‘Those same people have been home to offer more support to their own children etc.’

Yes and yet I’ve seen it thrown around on here that if you can’t support your children with their education it’s because you’re lazy/can’t be arsed to look after/educate them. It’s such a smug, judgemental attitude with no comprehension that some people just can’t do it.

I find that most pro brexit at any cost people are also no lockdown people.

But when asked why they are worried about a covid recession, but aren't worried about a brexit recession, they don't seem able to answer.

Shame really.

@Newjez I'm anti lockdown and anti Brexit.

SheepandCow

*”The lets just ignore the contagious virus and just act as normal brigade seriously think everything would run normally with an infectious disease spreading freely!

They think it will just kill Other People and that their lives will be unaffected.

Abhorrent and morally bankrupt attitudes towards The Others aka The Vulnerable aside, quite how people still believe that is beyond me.

How do they expect to receive routine or even lifesaving hospital treatment if hospital beds are full? And they will be, if Covid is left uncontained. Who cares for you in hospital when staff are too ill to work? Be it from Covid or the PTSD some have developed from the trauma of dealing with the pandemic.

How do we have a functioning economy, jobs protected, if people are too ill to work?

Long Covid is estimated to affect 10% of patients. So far. A significant proportion of the working age population. How do we pay for the massive increase in disability benefits from a reduced tax pot?

Still, Covid only happens to Other People.“*

This!^. Absolutely this! And...

If you look at the figures in terms of the % of people that will die, the % of people that will need hospitalisation and ICU, the % of people that would be of work for 2 weeks to 6 months plus, the % of people whose mental health would be destroyed by post trauma reactions to the panic caused by not being able to breathe, the process of hospitalisation without someone you know with you, making choices as healthcare providers about who gets treatment and who is left to die, bring with patients who are on their own as they die, the mental health impact of losing loved ones in such a horrible way without being able to say goodbye, the long term mental health impact of children losing grandparents and parents (there have been children orphaned by this virus already), the impact on the economy of all those people who need to take time off or because they are too dead to do their job...

Then think of the impact for anyone in some kind of accident that needs ICU and it’s not just full it’s spilling out into the field hospitals. The doctors and nurses pulled to deal with the ICU cases which the leave less urgent services unable to function. The burnout that will cause our medics and other staff and the impact in healthcare.

The impact in those who manage all the dead bodies and the trauma of that.

Young people end up in ICU too. They may fair better than than older people and those with health conditions but don’t underestimate the potential trauma from being in hospital and getting ICU based treatments. It can take an awfully long time to recover physically and mentally it can take even longer as it can be very traumatising.

I could go on but I won’t.

Lockdown is shit. Really shit. Truly shit. And people are suffering. Really suffering, and it’s shit. But it really really isn’t as shit as what would happen if we let this virus rip through our population.

The people that will suffer the most are the working class either way, because we live in a society that doesn’t value the working class. That needs to change and our recovery needs to change that.

@Newjez

I find that most pro brexit at any cost people are also no lockdown people.

But when asked why they are worried about a covid recession, but aren't worried about a brexit recession, they don't seem able to answer.

Shame really.

Really really not true ime.

Some of the biggest anti brexiters i know have been the least compliant when its come to restrictions.

Its interesting to watch in terms of the individual v society in their thinking.

It tends to be those in houses with gardens who can work from home who like to virtue signal about this from the smug comfort of their easy lives whilst those who are poor struggle whilst serving them and their needs. My son delivers groceries for a living - he has worked throughout since March and has not had a holiday.

However the UK is not unique. Although I support the Swedish solution and have done since before Sweden thought of it, most other countries have taken the British approach, even North Korea which shut off its border with China so thoroughly I think it caused food shortages.

We have sacrificed the young and poor for the sake of the old, sick and rich and it has not been for the greater good. Now is the time to start moving all covid 19 rules from a mandatory to voluntary basis even if many more die.

Excellence post msmcc1212