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I genuinely don’t get it?!

437 replies

Rapphue · 27/09/2020 13:01

Hopeful for balanced and sincere posts here rather than the assumption that I’m ‘playing ignorance’ or some other accusation because my question undermines the government narrative.

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses. Even if I accept that it is harmless to the NHS should it escalate fast and make many ill at the same time (so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that, then:

  1. Why is there suddenly a lack of concern about public health in general? People are dying because they are having treatment postponed due to Coronavirus. Hospitals are not busy and certainly not full of corona patients. It seems crazy to me that anyone who may fall ill non corona related is now at the back of the queue. Tough shit if that ends in your death.
  1. Pubs open until 10pm. I use this as one example of many arbitrary rules. Why does the virus suddenly operate after 10pm? Is it a vampire? Surely you can infect just as many people at 9:59pm as you can at 10pm. Is it just to reduce risk overall? If so then I think someone needs to read a gcse science textbook... the risk has already been taken if the pub is open full stop.
  1. Cashless society...erm. Why?

I’m not trying to incite some sort of dramatic post. I hope there are honest reasons for operating as we have the last few months. I hope I am wrong to feel cynical. I hope - and suspect - I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand why this is happening how it is.

As far as I can tell this is very much about controlling people’s lives to their detriment. If it was about health why on Earth are we letting people get sick and delaying treatment because of a virus?

Is there something in the London protests yesterday? Am I missing something medical, political or scientific here?

OP posts:
Cornettoninja · 27/09/2020 16:28

@MadameBlobby

I am not a conspiracy theorist, I don’t think it’s just the flu, I accept that though the death rate is low the numbers are big due to exponential growth, and that we don’t know much about long term effects yet so need to be cautious - but - there’s just something not adding up now in the whole way this is being managed by our governments. I can’t really put my finger on it. Maybe my spidey senses are just on alert given the way the gov has fucked everything up.
And that’s fair enough, but the difference here and other movements is that you know that you don’t know.

It starts to become dangerous when people fill in the blanks with whatever fits their world view and then set out to get others who need blanks filled in to agree with them based on the flimsiest of arguments that just don’t hold up to scrutiny or inevitably involve someone else's sacrifice and hardship. Usually both tbh.

This is a generally confusing and tense time, I don’t think the feeling of uneasiness at what’s going on or what will happen next is uncommon. There’s a lot of information out there and it needs to all be treated with a bit of critical thinking. Nothing is perfect and changing your mind shows capability of critical thinking but there are so many people completely incapable of accepting that they can be both right and wrong at the same time.

Devlesko · 27/09/2020 16:28

I totally agree, OP.
If you voice an opposition though, they brand you as a conspiracist, and most of society seem happy for their freedom to go. No accounting for folk.

Devlesko · 27/09/2020 16:30

There was a day last week when American TV stations across most of the states all reported exactly the same number 30 something, that was funny.

CrunchyNutNC · 27/09/2020 16:32

Why do you think it's ok to insult people who question absurd policy's?

They aren't absurd though. Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean they are absurd.

You mentioned the eat put scheme. The rise in cases is not thought to be substantially related to eating out in restaurants. The eat out scheme was a success insofar as it boosted a hard hit sector at the point when transmission levels were low and helped to check inflation. Now transmission is increasing and we need to do less of it. And yet a group on MN (not suggesting you Ophelia ) seem to simultaneously scream that we're ruining the economy, that we need to get back to normal, and that the eat out help out was a terrible idea and proves they should ignore the current rules.

CrunchyNutNC · 27/09/2020 16:33

The 'eat out' scheme, sorry not put!

Nellodee · 27/09/2020 16:34

Neil Ferguson gets a very hard time for his models, made at the beginning of outbreaks. A model is only as good as the data fed into it and in the early stages of pandemics, the data is all over the place. We still need those early models and realistically, we need the worst case models far more than the best case ones, but it is the nature of the beast that they are more likely to be wrong than to be right.

Sb2012 · 27/09/2020 16:35

@Rapphue

I’m not slating Boris for saying close the pubs at 10pm. I’m not slating anyone or any decision - just questioning it I suppose?

I get that there needs to be some sort of balance if the economy is to keep going and be saved from utter devastation. But this is a virus. It will spread even if you are in a pub for a hour. Closing at 10 makes no odds. Either shut completely or let’s carry on as normal. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Having delayed treatment because of a virus when hospitals are almost empty...I have a very close friend working in intensive care in a northern hospital and he has said it has been the easiest 6 months of work in his life!! I accept this may be coincidence and also may be his particular hospital but it seems very strange to me.

Then now there’s talk on giving up on cash. It sounds sinister.

I’m not one for conspiracy theories and know the virus is very real and a danger to human life. But what is going on alongside this just doesn’t make sense to me at all.

... a virus no worse than any other illness?

Don’t agree with this. Can you name me any other virus circulating in the U.K. that has caused a similar amount of deaths and infection rates?
I know a lot of people like to compare it to the flu, but we all know the number of deaths caused by the flu are no where near the same. Also flu is generally well understood and precautions such as vaccination programmes are put in place to help the more vulnerable. Your chance of catching the flu are lower as there are individuals amongst us that are vaccinated against it. Also if you catch the flu then you develop antibodies to prevent you from catching it again that year/season and this means you won’t be passing it on to others. This is why the deaths or risks associated with the flu are not comparable to this virus.
The coronavirus appears to be a lot more resilient and contagious than the influenza virus. Also it isn’t seasonal like the flu. Without restrictions it could impact a lot more people and with little known about developing immunity to it we could very well end up catching it again and again. Even in the young and healthy if you catch a particularly nasty virus your immunity takes a beating and white blood cell counts are lowered and it takes a while to recover. If you were to catch it again whilst your immunity is weak and still recovering chances are you will get a lot more complications the second time round or even the third time!

Also I just want to point out that the restriction being put into place and even the earlier national lockdown was for everyone’s benefit. It was to help us become more familiar with the virus and it’s effects. Very little was known at the beginning of how this virus impacts long term health. (There are viral diseases that can cause cancer later on in life, infertility etc) but also the restrictions are there to not overwhelm the NHS as a lot of vulnerable people were are risk of death at the beginning and still are. The nhs and government don’t just exist to serve the young and healthy, but also the now old and vulnerable, who may not be contributing a lot to the economy right now, but would’ve have done in the past. A lot of these ppl have contributed to the economy and country just as much if not more, than the young and healthy today. We can’t just forget about them and toss them to one side, leaving them to live or die depending on their luck! As it’s a NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE and government it’s there for all of the nation and not designed to just focus on what is right for the young and healthy who are at very little risk. It’s about inclusion for everyone in our nation BAME, old, ill, healthy, weak, strong.... people really need to realise this and stop thinking only they matter

Cornettoninja · 27/09/2020 16:35

@SpringIsSprung1

Haven't read the full thread but my question is WHY did government do the 'eat out to help out' thing when they had all that scientific information saying it was so contagious! Then a swift u turn when the number of Infections obviously rocketedConfused
Simply, that was an economic decision and the gamble didn’t pay off. Much like most of the policies throughout there has had to be a balance with keeping business profitable and infections low enough to cope with.

Much like the recent national restrictions - from a health perspective we should be locked down right now (I believe this is what Witty would have done if he was unchallenged) but that would definitely hurt the economy more so this is what compromise looks like. It’s another gamble, if it’s not enough then more compromise will have to be made at the cost of the economy.

Gamble sounds reckless but it’s the best we’ve got, we all need the economy and we all need healthcare so with the unknown quantity that covid is, gambles are the only way to find out.

Xenia · 27/09/2020 16:43

I have not supported any of the CV19 legislation since day 1 although I follow it I would rather it were all just advisory not mandatory. I would rather increase my risk of death by 10x and that of my children than have these laws in place.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 27/09/2020 16:46

@Nellodee

Neil Ferguson gets a very hard time for his models, made at the beginning of outbreaks. A model is only as good as the data fed into it and in the early stages of pandemics, the data is all over the place. We still need those early models and realistically, we need the worst case models far more than the best case ones, but it is the nature of the beast that they are more likely to be wrong than to be right.
Q1. In 2005, Ferguson said that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu. He told the Guardian that ‘around 40 million people died in 1918 Spanish flu outbreak… There are six times more people on the planet now so you could scale it up to around 200 million people probably.’ In the end, only 282 people died worldwide from the disease between 2003 and 2009.

How did he get this forecast so wrong?

Q2.
In 2009, Ferguson and his Imperial team predicted that swine flu had a case fatality rate 0.3 per cent to 1.5 per cent. His most likely estimate was that the mortality rate was 0.4 per cent. A government estimate, based on Ferguson’s advice, said a ‘reasonable worst-case scenario’ was that the disease would lead to 65,000 UK deaths.
In the end swine flu killed 457 people in the UK and had a death rate of just 0.026 per cent in those infected.

Why did the Imperial team overestimate the fatality of the disease? Or to borrow Robinson's words to Hancock this morning: 'that prediction wasn't just nonsense was it? It was dangerous nonsense.'

Q3.
In 2001 the Imperial team produced modelling on foot and mouth disease that suggested that animals in neighbouring farms should be culled, even if there was no evidence of infection. This influenced government policy and led to the total culling of more than six million cattle, sheep and pigs – with a cost to the UK economy estimated at £10 billion.

It has been claimed by experts such as Michael Thrusfield, professor of veterinary epidemiology at Edinburgh University, that Ferguson’s modelling on foot and mouth was ‘severely flawed’ and made a ‘serious error’ by ‘ignoring the species composition of farms,’ and the fact that the disease spread faster between different species.

Does Ferguson acknowledge that his modelling in 2001 was flawed and if so, has he taken steps to avoid future mistakes?

Q4.

In 2002, Ferguson predicted that between 50 and 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. He also predicted that number could rise to 150,000 if there was a sheep epidemic as well. In the UK, there have only been 177 deaths from BSE.

Does Ferguson believe that his ‘worst-case scenario’ in this case was too high? If so, what lessons has he learnt when it comes to his modelling since?

Q5.

Ferguson’s disease modelling for Covid-19 has been criticised by experts such as John Ioannidis, professor in disease prevention at Stanford University, who has said that: ‘The Imperial College study has been done by a highly competent team of modellers. However, some of the major assumptions and estimates that are built in the calculations seem to be substantially inflated.’

Has the Imperial team’s Covid-19 model been subject to outside scrutiny from other experts, and are the team questioning their own assumptions used? What safeguards are in place?

Q6.
On 22 March, Ferguson said that Imperial College London’s model of the Covid-19 disease is based on undocumented, 13-year-old computer code, that was intended to be used for a feared influenza pandemic, rather than a coronavirus.

How many assumptions in the Imperial model are still based on influenza and is there any risk that the modelling is flawed because of these assumptions?

Ophelia2020 · 27/09/2020 16:47

Why do you think it's ok to insult people who question absurd policy's?

They aren't absurd though. Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean they are absurd

They are absurd. I can chase a fox with a group of friends but I can't see my mum? You think that makes sense?

The eat out to help out was introduced after the predictions. The gov could have given the hospitality industry a boost in various ways. Wild idea, but they could have just given them the money directly. There is no way of knowing whether that contributed to a rise in cases or not.

Nellode Ferguson should get a hard time for those models. Because he's been persistently wrong and created needless panick about mad cow and other nonsense. There are thousands of other scientists and virologist, why did the government only listen to him?

He's resigned anyway, after breaking the lockdown he recommended to see his affair partner. I think it goes without saying, he wasn't too worried about his own predictions.

Sunnysideup999 · 27/09/2020 16:48

I largely agree that the response to this virus has been completely disproportionate , when considering impact on mental health and detrimental to other health services.
But the point is this virus is novel - so the full risks and full long term risks are unknown. And the mortality rate is comparatively high for a particularly proportion of the population

SallySeven · 27/09/2020 16:48

I respect that point of view Xenia.

But would you not forsee civil unrest if the health service collapsed while the government took no action?

SheepandCow · 27/09/2020 16:50

One problem is so many people don't realise how bad real flu is.
The presenteeism culture that's developed over the past twenty years has led to increasing numbers of bad colds (which are unpleasant) being described as 'flu'.
Lower numbers catching real flu because of increased vaccine participation adds to the misperception that flu is generally not that bad.

That said, Covid is very clearly more serious than the flu. The significant proportion of patients who've developed blood clotting issues, heart or lung problems, and psychiatric complications demonstrates this as much as the death rate.

BryanAdamsLeftAnkle · 27/09/2020 16:50

I'm working with it. I physically see the effects on patients. A mix of very fit people of all ages with no pre existing condition and a larger number with long term conditions.

I started typing a case I witnessed but I had to delete as its I realised I can't share it.

It's real. I'm feeling traumatised. The unit I work at. We are all tired.

My friend who is a Nurse has no pre existing condition and has been left with an enlarged heart, damage to her lungs that will be longterm. Blood that clots so is at risk of embolism and stroke. She can't walk far now and used to be fit and active.

The antimaskers make me furious. The constant denying that it's serious from people who red the daily mail and don't do a shift in a hospital.

Im quite sad about it all now.

Xenia · 27/09/2020 16:52

The health services have not collapsed in countries where no mandatory CV19 rules are in place and most people would have followed voluntary recommendations because they are sensible. In my area we have no space in NHS hospitals anyway in March and you could only be down to almost dead before they would take you in (I was in covid central then) and GP services are still not really being provided nor NHS dental check ups. The one thing the pandemic has shown is that for most of us the NHS is not there is a crisis and 20% of our tax going on it may not be worth it.

SallySeven · 27/09/2020 16:54

Is this Sweden Xenia? Or elsewhere?

Ime most people are sensible BUT there is a sizeable minority that are not.

MadameBlobby · 27/09/2020 17:02

@Xenia

The health services have not collapsed in countries where no mandatory CV19 rules are in place and most people would have followed voluntary recommendations because they are sensible. In my area we have no space in NHS hospitals anyway in March and you could only be down to almost dead before they would take you in (I was in covid central then) and GP services are still not really being provided nor NHS dental check ups. The one thing the pandemic has shown is that for most of us the NHS is not there is a crisis and 20% of our tax going on it may not be worth it.
There was a thread yesterday about potentially shielding of over 45s and one poss reason mooted was it would be so they didn’t get sick and have to use NHS resources and risk overwhelming them. I think if the NHS can’t cope with the prospect of such a huge swathe of the people it is there to serve becoming ill it’s not really fit for purpose
DameFanny · 27/09/2020 17:04

Re Long Covid, I have APS. It's an autoimmune blood disorder that leads to clotting issues - could be big fat brain clots, DVTs, PEs, but also micro clots across the body, plus joint pain, fatigue, dizziness, all the fun of the fair. TBH it sounds a lot like long covid, and I frankly look forward to seeing many of the covid deniers find out personally just how it feels.

CoffeeandCroissant · 27/09/2020 17:06

@Ophelia2020 Have you read the relevant papers or are you copying and pasting from lockdown sceptics or similar?

Because, you are doing some very selective cherry picking and providing numbers out of context - for example "on BSE, he gave a figure of 50 to 50,000 deaths by 2080. His lower bound was 40 deaths and his upper bound was ~7,000 deaths for cumulative deaths by 2020."

He emphasised that the worst-case scenarios were far less likely than other scenarios and the paper suggests that the best estimate is 100 deaths to 1,000 deaths.
See: www.nature.com/articles/nature709/ and www.nature.com/news/2002/020107/full/news020107-7.html

Models are not predictions but provide a variety of scenarios from best case to worst case, with confidence intervals and also a most likely scenario/best estimate, again with confidence intervals.
However, you only quote the top of the upper bound figures, for which there were huge confidence intervals. Worst case scenarios are also the least likely and with hindsight and without context sometimes will look rather ridiculous. Models are only as good as the data used which is likely to improve as more is known.

"Only released code last week"

Okay, clearly copy and pasted from somewhere, as he released it months ago. Grin

Forgone90 · 27/09/2020 17:13

I think it's crazy the amount of people that die due to smoking related illnesses and the countless that are admitted to hospital because of it aswell, yet we don't ban smoking!!

SheepandCow · 27/09/2020 17:15

@SallySeven

Is this Sweden Xenia? Or elsewhere?

Ime most people are sensible BUT there is a sizeable minority that are not.

It can't be Swden. Our media likes to make out they did absolutely nothing but that's not the case. They did have Covid measures. Although I don't know whether they were mandatory? If they weren't, it's very obvious we couldn't have taken the same approach. They're clearly more civic minded than us because they are following their guidelines (be they mandatory or advisory).

I look forward to us turning into Sweden. Very little overcrowded housing. Fifty percent of Swedish households are single occupancy. Very easy to socially distance in that setup. Add in a very good well-funded (higher taxes) healthcare system. Let's do it! But I'm unsure how we achieve this overnight?

Then again the economy is doing better in the neighbouring (took more measures) countries. Perhaps we should look to emulate Denmark or Norway instead.

Guylan · 27/09/2020 17:19

Sorry I have not read through the replies so apologies if I am repeating points people have made.

Firstly, knowing two medical people who report the hospitals they are working at have seemed to not have been affected considerably by the coronavirus during the first peak and nor now as numbers are starting to rise again (albeit not back to peak levels for now, but it’s on the up and with exponential rise number of cases can increase significantly quickly) does not mean others areas are not being affected. Numbers of cases in a country are not spread equally across the country. It’s probably more like pockets of outbreaks across the country.

Secondly, in lieu of a vaccine or effective treatments, it is important to keep community transmission low of a highly infectious novel virus that can make a lot of the population sick at the same time, kill some of them (the mortality rate on paper might seem low but when many many can get it the numbers of deaths can be considerable as we have already seen) - and as seems to be happening with longCovid causing long term health complications in a not insignificant proportion of positive cases, possibly for years, of all ages. A full lockdown can reduce community transmission significantly but it’s a blunt measure with a lot of other negative consequences. By mid March the U.K. had been caught on the back foot having missed that community transmission had already taken root and numbers were exponentially rising. It ideally should have been quarantining international arrivals and getting into place a good test and trace system, but as it didn’t it’s not surprising that there seemed probably no alternative to lockdown to get cases down because of the chaos and suffering having the virus rip through communities would probably cause.

Lockdown did get numbers down by early summer but some experts believed the govt should have continued lockdown a little longer to get cases down even lower before gradually lifting measures. At the same time a well functioning test, trace and track system needed to be in place that could take over once case numbers were low enough to keep case numbers low. However, this did not happen and the failure to get a proper, locally responsive, test-and-trace system operating has been the key problem since the spring and summer.

Quoting from a newspaper article I read today, ‘Prof Christina Pagel, professor of clinical operational research at University College London, explains the importance of such a programme: “If you have infected people, and lots of non-infected people, you’re trying to stop the infected people mixing. We know that quite a lot of transmission is by people who either never have symptoms, or in the two days before they get symptoms. So you have to find those people and stop them mixing. And the only way to do that is by contact tracing.

But during the summer, England’s contact tracing system was not able to pinpoint those asymptomatic carriers. NHS Test and Trace failed to reach its target of 80% of close contacts of people who tested positive and in some areas tracers only reached half the contacts provided.

When testing has fallen over to the point that you actually can’t be sure where the hotspots are, because there are places you cannot get a test, then all you have left is to try and stop the whole population mixing,” Pagel added. “It’s a really blunt instrument, but that’s where we are.” So the absence of adequate test-and-tracing equals new lockdowns.

To get the NHS back up and running and restoring the whole range of services, we need a way of keeping staff safe and keeping patients safe, and one of those factors is test and trace. We are teetering on the edge of a second wave and it’s very likely that we will fall in.

Restoring services is absolutely fundamental, because we’re coming into winter. Winter often leads to staff shortages because of illness anyway – it’s absolutely critical that teachers and healthcare and care staff are prioritised.”

We are facing many more months of difficult restrictions with the negative consequences that come with them because of the test and trace failure. There is still the hope a vaccine may be in place by next spring and so I think it’s worth various restriction measures through this winter, it may not have to be full lockdown, until then. However, it is my view if there is not by then we may have to face learning to live with it which will still require a good test and trace system to keep the virus at bay until effective treatments or a vaccine (which might have to be administered annually) is developed.

SheepandCow · 27/09/2020 17:20

@Forgone90

I think it's crazy the amount of people that die due to smoking related illnesses and the countless that are admitted to hospital because of it aswell, yet we don't ban smoking!!
Smokers cost millions to the NHS....but they pay in billions. The NHS needs them really.

We also don't have a situation where all the smokers are suddenly ill together all in one go, all (including loads of hospital staff) requiring hospital treatment at the same time, and whilst in hospital spreading their illness to all the other patients and staff.