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Will you be getting the track and trace app? If not, why not?

372 replies

FairIsleFenella · 25/09/2020 17:59

I've downloaded it. The only info I had to give was the first half of my postcode. I'm happy to use it, I have nothing to hide! However, I know there will be people who are unhappy to use it. If you are one of them, please tell me why. Is it a civil liberties issue?

OP posts:
Hmmph · 26/09/2020 11:20

@Frappuccinofan No worries and thanks for the apology. It made me find the links to share on this thread. It’s always good to be made to back up things I say!

I am just finding it very bizarre that the app will download onto my son’s cheap as chips and very out of date Moto C (that he complains about on a daily basis...) but not onto far better and newer phones.

LolaSmiles · 26/09/2020 11:34

You’ll use it to gain access to places with safety measures in place, where other people going there will feel safer due to an expectation that other users must be compliant, and then you’ll actively take steps to avoid compliance yourself. You are a disgrace
What's a disgrace is your attack on another poster.

The app is a mess, the government couldn't be bothered to set up a proper test and trace system, people aren't able to get tests and you're arguing that the disgraceful thing in this situation is someone checking into a venue but choosing not to have an app of questionable quality follow them.

The last cafe I went into I signed in on the way in. They have my name and my phone number. I don't have the app and won't be getting it. Throughout this pandemic I'm taking the approach of lowing my own risk as much as possible so aren't going out to lots of indoor public spaces. If someone is going to be hysterical that someone hasn't got the app whilst they're all happily socialising in indoor venues regularly then their sense of risk is wildly out of balance

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2020 11:34

So essentially you intend to bypass the purpose of the app. You’ll use it to gain access to places with safety measures in place, where other people going there will feel safer due to an expectation that other users must be compliant, and then you’ll actively take steps to avoid compliance yourself. You are a disgrace.

No. Not a disgrace.

The problem here is the fact that the app will create a false sense of security anyway.

And it will exclude certain people in society for accessing certain things. It amplifies inequality.

To work properly a certain percentage of people need to use it. And there are massive privacy and data issues with it. I do not blame anyone bypassing certain things.

Not to mention the problem is that the most deprived communities are suffering from covid most and are the least able to isolate. Its a financial issue that no one wants to properly confront and deal with.

People who are older (and most at risk of health problems) and more likely to have a phone which doesn't support the app. People who are poor (and most at risk of being infected and also have poorer covid outcomes) and more likely to have a phone which doesn't support the app.

And the fact that there is a MASSIVE exception for under 16s who are not supposed to use the app for legal reasons.

The app only works effectively if a certain percentage of the population have it. It won't achieve that rate because of inequality and a lack of trust in government and apps.

These means people who use it maybe have a false sense of how much it protects them. And might encourage riskier behaviour, these meaning that it ends up not actually solving the problem.

Not to mention the technological limitations of the app and how it won't pick up every contact in certain environments. Cos bluetooth is a little bit shite.

Nor to mention the fact that it produces a 1/3 'false positive' rate for coming into contact with a known case. At which point you are supposed to isolate. And the chances are you won't even have been infected even if you have come into contact with a known case.

Which might be fine if you are walking around in a restuarant. But if it happens to be the hospital canteen, and everyone is being asked to isolate needlessly that could very quickly create its own problems.

The thing is, the app only really works in places where the number of cases is very low, economic inequality is much lower, there is proper economic (and crucially legal) support for isolating whenever is needed (as in multiple times), there is trust in government and big business in terms of data protection and enough people are using it - which has to include under 16s.

If you are using the app under the misguided idea that you are 'safe' if you use it and you can do things you couldn't otherwise because 'they are too high risk' or that its a way to get things 'back to normal' without considering what this actually means and how it actively helps and encourages the exclusion of certain groups and creates a two tier society (hope you are all ok with this).

I deeply resent people saying that other people are 'a disgrace' for using the app when there are a huge amount of moral issues, legal issues and practical problems with the app that no one really wants to have an adult conversation about because they want to believe in how the app is somehow something whiter than white which 'will save the world' in a non-invasive completely innocent and saintly manner with no unintended rather dark side effects. Cos its utter bollocks and just proves the extent to which people don't actually think anymore.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm very much grounded in reality and considering the pros and cons of issues and social problems.

The app is NOT a magic bullet. It has a whole host of ethical and moral minefields which users should be aware of and make an informed decision about.

I am fearful of the implications if we are forced to use it and how much it could marginalise and let us sleepwalk into authoritarism. Which considering how much I have a problem with authoritarism, I will actively protest and sabotage as much as possible because of how that oppresses the most vulnerable and how it allows the exploitation of people.

If that makes people a 'disgrace' then I think that speaks volumes about your authoritarian leanings. And at that point I will just bite my tongue and merely ask others to REALLY think about this app and what it can actually achieve and what the cost of that might be.

DeltaFlyer · 26/09/2020 11:36

My phone is so ancient that I can't download new apps without deleting things. I've already deleted all non essentials from it but still not enough memory.
So ancient in fact that the last 3 system updates can't install as there is insufficient space.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2020 11:38

And yes. Track and trace.

I can't see the app doing anything more than ending up overloading a system which is already not fit for purpose and a pile of bullshit that is massively under performing.

People will be blamed for not using the app, when the real failure lies with track and trace and the failure of government to provide sufficient financial and legal protection to everyone including the poorest, the most vulnerable to exploitation, the struggling self employed, those on zero hours contracts and those in industries where they are particularly at risk of redunacy.

justanotherneighinparadise · 26/09/2020 11:41

I’ll use it when I’m forced to use it.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 26/09/2020 11:43

@RedToothBrush I agree with everything you've said in your post above

userxx · 26/09/2020 11:57

If it makes it easier to check into places then yes I'll download.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 26/09/2020 12:06

“I’ve got nothing to hide”

Neither have I but wanting your Privacy doesn’t mean you have something to hide.

Heffalooomia · 26/09/2020 12:08

Not to mention the problem is that the most deprived communities are suffering from covid most and are the least able to isolate. Its a financial issue that no one wants to properly confront and deal with
this is true the UK has very high levels of inequality, inequality harms societies and it is a large contributing factor to our poor performance when it comes to covid
but the government does not want to deal with inequality....instead it wants to preserve and entrenched existing structures of wealth and power
The government does not want to and will not tackle the real causes of our problems they just pretend to,

DeltaFlyer · 26/09/2020 12:10

Just to clarify though that I would have downloaded it if I could.
And after reading the thread I can say that my problem isn't a software issue as it's on a 2018 update. (Android) But hardware as the phone is about 5 years old.
Which will only solve with a new phone but not in the financial situation to do so atm

Heffalooomia · 26/09/2020 12:11

I also have nothing to hide but I still value privacy

dalrympy · 26/09/2020 12:16

I did because you have to have it here to get into most cafes and pubs. I literally had to download it before I could get a beer the other lunchtime.

But it's draining my battery so I've switched off tracking unless I need it. I have a feelings it's doing it anyway though as battery has gone down a lot quicker.

Can't believe that older iPhones won't run it! So many people use iPhone 6 or SE. ridiculous

Jigglypuffler · 26/09/2020 13:12

Thank you for summing it up so well @RedToothBrush

MagpieSong · 26/09/2020 13:21

Currently, no. It doesn’t download on my devices as they aren’t ‘new’ enough. I’m not spending silly amounts on new devices just to get the app and I don’t like new phones as they’re all huge and my hands are small, so any modern mobile tends to be a pain to use. It’s really stupid only the new devices can get to it and cuts out way too many people, considering the time it took to develop and the fact it’s supposed to be helping us with Covid-19, it shouldn’t have been hard to open it up to more systems and therefore older devices.

It did make me chuckle when the press, maybe the Independent, referred to it cutting out the ‘old and poor’ as I’m neither (in my 20s, comfortable but not rich) and it cuts out a lot more groups of people than that! Not that I find it funny that it’s been done so incompetently or that two vulnerable groups will suffer, but just that the article honed it down to two specific groups rather than including them in a wider picture.

Otherwise, yes, I would download it.

TazMac · 26/09/2020 13:22

Got it on Thursday but it drained my battery, so I’ve just deleted it.

Heffalooomia · 26/09/2020 13:28

I'm confused should I get the NHS app or carry on using the Zoe app 🤔

Tootletum · 26/09/2020 13:28

I've downloaded it because I wanted to see how it works. I don't actually go anywhere though so doubt I'll use it really.

daisychain01 · 26/09/2020 14:07

@Heffalooomia

I'm confused should I get the NHS app or carry on using the Zoe app 🤔
Zoe app is design to provide an ongoing data source from all participants towards the research being run via Kings College.

The NHS Track and Trace app is to provide immediate data for contract tracing if someone comes into contact with anyone in the population with C19 so they can be alerted and requested to self isolate to reduce the spread of the virus.

They serve two different but complementary purposes, so it would be good to do both if you are willing. The more data they have, the more the virus can be understood and how it is spread. For those interested in taking part, Zoe asks for details about how many times you've been out per week for exercise, shopping medical reasons. It also asks about mask wearing. And it asks every day how you're feeling to try and create correlations between people's choices and the propensity to catch C19. If you have C19 symptoms then you get the opportunity to get a test.

GalaxyCookieCrumble · 26/09/2020 14:07

Absolutely not, complete farce

daisychain01 · 26/09/2020 14:11

design = designed

daisychain01 · 26/09/2020 14:47

I can't comment on the matter of inequality that has been exposed by the virus (no different to inequality exposed in the 2007/8 austerity cuts, the all in it together only applied to some of the "all") - societal inequality is a complex problem that always rears its ugly head with any situation of adversity, because it affects the vulnerable (poorer) people in society, more than those who have financial padding.

As regards the App, they are continuing to refine and improve the App (just like every app, the first release is always ropey, buggy and full of gaps that need to be resolved with subsequent versions) I believe that we do need to give it a chance and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Yes there are ongoing problems (still!) such as users not being able to input C19 tests conducted at PHE labs (I understand they are now working on the next update having those Lab results integrated into the app).

Maybe I'm less concerned about giving it a chance now it has been released this weekend because I can wfh if I do get 'pinged' as having come into contact with a C19 carrier, and my employer will support me. And I don't socialise in places with lots of people, so I don't even think I will get a ping unless I'm really unlucky and stand in front of someone with C19 in the Tesco click and collect. So I'm willing to be a guinea pig.

CoffeeandCroissant · 26/09/2020 15:07

Useful tip here for iPhone users:

For healthcare workers wanting to use the test and trace apps, you can use iOS Shortcuts app to create an automation that toggles your Bluetooth when you arrive and leave work. Quick and easy and automated.
mobile.twitter.com/fakethom/status/1309386066357518337

I know it says healthcare workers, but could be useful for other situations too?

CoffeeandCroissant · 26/09/2020 15:12

@Jigglypuffler

Don't have it yet. If I have to download it at some point, I will. But I don't trust the government, and I worry about the power they will have with the data they can collect with it. It's a bit too Big Brother and feels like it might be a step in a direction I'm not comfortable with. I'm happy to provide my details to any place I visit, but I'm wary of this, for now. Happy to be proven wrong, but I've been skeptical of the management/strategy/call it what you will of this virus since the start, and the policies of control that are now enabled does give me the heebies a bit.
MYTH: The NHS COVID-19 app can track my whereabouts and access my personal information.

FACT: The app doesn’t hold any personal information, and the only thing it’s tracking is the virus. It can’t tell anyone – including the government - who or where you are.

See video at:
mobile.twitter.com/WGHealthandCare/status/1309488779955261444

jasjas1973 · 26/09/2020 15:13

@dalrympy

Can't believe that older iPhones won't run it! So many people use iPhone 6 or SE

It will run on an Iphone 6s and the SE, the SE is a 6s in a 5s case.