Is it really worth all this?

[Dustballs]

What are we shutting down for? What are we trying to save?

I don't understand what the purpose of this is anymore.

@Pachonga

Who says you can’t suppress it? I live in the world’s worst affected city. Yesterday, out of 100,000 tests done in my state, less than 1% came back positive. We’re reopening slowly and sensibly. Huge mistakes were made way back in February and March, no one wants to see us go back to those days and most people will do everything they personally can to prevent that. It may well come back, time will tell, but at least we’ll be better prepared this time.

Are you in NYC?

@SomewhereEast

Re locking down earlier. My home country of Ireland was widely lauded at the time for locking down earlier than the UK (I think by a fortnight IIRC?), and for testing more early on. Confirmed infection levels were suppressed down to almost nothing when Ireland began the reopening process. Now Irish cases per million are about comparable to the UK's, Dublin is back under tough restrictions and the debate in the Irish media is exactly the same as the one in the UK media.

That's interesting. Certainly the other countries who are also struggling have different issues from the UK - different leadership, different health model, different economy, etc. But all still having the same problems.

We all think "x should have been/be done and then y will happen" and it seems obvious. But countries doing different things still end up here.

*The NHS is screwed because of ten years of Tory austerity underfunding it.
The NHS is understaffed because of Brexit and the Hostile Environment.
The NHS nearly falls over every winter.

The answer to that is to properly fund the public sector
and then COVID would be less of an issue*

This too. Same with schools. They'd be far better if we had better buildings, smaller classes, more teachers and TAs.

People have voted overwhelmingly for years for austerity.

If you don't maintain your roof don't be surprised if it caves in during a storm.

I know a few people with it currently and me and my partner and kids had it back in April

Nobody I know has had it worse than a cold or milder . Personally I just felt very tired, headache and went off food

In effect we have been Sweden over the summer, with little restrictions other than the introduction of mask wearing, light touch enforcement of quarantine just reliance on people to do the right thing. We could eat out, go on holidays, see friends etc. Unfortunately some people failed to act responsibly, such as the person in Bolton who went on a pub crawl rather than quarantine and I suspect many more like this and cases are now rising rapidly. Perhaps we need to realise that it is not actually possible to emulate Sweden when we are a nation of selfish gits.

Testing, track and trace should be under the control of LOCAL authorities
Decisions on lockdowns should be under the control of LOCAL experts
Healthcare allocation should be under the control of LOCAL doctors

not unaccountable wazzocks in Whitehall who have deliberately underfunded the NHS and care homes and schools for a decade

"That is getting on with it..without any drama."

Fair enough @WokesFromHome - but what if you didn't have to do all that? What if all of that was for nothing?

That's why I started this thread. Not to moan. Just to discuss whether there might be a better or different way for us all to do this.

@NotAKaren totally - we are not a nation that are capable of taking personal responsibility , sadly

@Chaosalloveragain

Agree. I’d add though that there are serious consequences to locking down 80 year olds. It can send them into decline, affect their ability to walk etc

People don’t really understand what long Covid is like unless they’ve lived it.

I’m really sorry you’ve had such a shit time. Covid in truth sounds horrid and a really nasty virus. But this doesn’t help us - I don’t want to be ill for 6 months but ultimately if it happens then it happens. Covid is here now, it is a new unpleasant life risk alongside the others.

@SomewhereEast

Re locking down earlier. My home country of Ireland was widely lauded at the time for locking down earlier than the UK (I think by a fortnight IIRC?), and for testing more early on. Confirmed infection levels were suppressed down to almost nothing when Ireland began the reopening process. Now Irish cases per million are about comparable to the UK's, Dublin is back under tough restrictions and the debate in the Irish media is exactly the same as the one in the UK media.

A valid point.

If you strike early to do a NZ it’s one thing but suppressing and releasing early still brings same issues we have

we are not a nation that are capable of taking personal responsibility

Oh do jog on. This sort of nonsense is completely unhelpful.

Yes, am in New York City. It was HELL here, proper awful. Long covid among young and otherwise healthy people everywhere. Very few people here, having lived through what we did, are keen to pay that price again for ‘normality’. The economy can be and will be fixed. It may take time and all that but anything else is absolutely not worth it

The problem is OP that we will still have the same economic pain if we don't lockdown. If 100,000s people die and even more develop long term symptoms people will become too fearful to go out and spend anyway. Schools will still shutdown because staff will be off sick and people will still have their nhs treatments cancelled because it will be overwhelmed with covid. You will have an equally bleak economic situation but with more deaths.

@Pachonga there were 908 cases yesterday in New York from a population of 8.9 million. So isn’t the rate higher than most of the UK?

That it isn’t rising is likely to be due to resistance in the population. Most people in the U.K. are taking covid really seriously, honestly. It really isn’t the den of inequity that some on here suggest.

Oh FGS @Dustballs Really?

What a bizarre thing to say.

@weepingwillow22 but we will still be stuck in the same situation. We unlock and it comes back. Unless you are suggesting we lockdown forever. The early vaccinations are only going to help a bit they won’t solve it.

NYC was hit really hard but has quite high antibodies (70% in some boroughs) which will slow it down now. We have max 20 in London

The NHS would be overwhelmed because it is Underfunded after years of austerity

The Government has been gaslighting all of us
hiding the failings caused by austerity and Brexit and the hostile environment
behind COVID

and when COVID waves on past, the NHS will still be broken because Johnson's cronies broke it
not COVID

That was New York state, with a considerably higher population than New York City, but yes, point taken. However, it’s low compared to what it was, which is the important information. Tests are coming back at less than 1% positive and the R rate is decent, considering schools and colleges are back.

@Teateaandmoretea What's the solution then?

@Pachonga

That was New York state, with a considerably higher population than New York City, but yes, point taken. However, it’s low compared to what it was, which is the important information. Tests are coming back at less than 1% positive and the R rate is decent, considering schools and colleges are back.

That is good to hear

[quote Emmie12345]@NotAKaren totally - we are not a nation that are capable of taking personal responsibility , sadly[/quote]
@NotAKaren totally - we are not a nation that are capable of taking personal responsibility , sadly

What surprises me is that there weren't more objections to the idea that everyone had to sit at home for months because the health system wasn't good enough to cope. The message was 'protect the NHS' - ie you had to potentially lose your job, your business or your entire livelihood, and your children had to lose their education to protect a public service that was supposed to be there to help people. It's bizarre when you think about it - destroying the economy to 'protect' the health system.

@Asterion @SomewhereEast

In looking at economic impact / infection rate comparisons with other EU countries, the FT has a great recent graph.

Demonstrates that the UK really is an outlier (with negative economic recovery & high infection rates) compared with many other European countries. Will try to attach