Is it really worth all this?

[Dustballs]

What are we shutting down for? What are we trying to save?

I don't understand what the purpose of this is anymore.

In short, it's a numbskull idea.

^^the type of statement from someone who wants to stifle debate.

It’s also a numbskull idea to lock everything down as then the economy will tank and we won’t have an NHS to save.

The only possible strategy is to try and walk that delicate tightrope between the NHS being overwhelmed and not over the next few months. Accepting that some things will shut due to ill staff and that some people will die, but they would in lockdown too. Then hopefully we build further immunity in the population and have a reasonably shallow curve. If we really are a few weeks behind France that is reasonably reassuring.

I can’t see anyone saying ‘swing everything open’ and have pop concerts for 5 thousand. But if rates go up the older and vulnerable will have to for a time be more careful than the average.

Pre covid is a fantasy now, we could lock down forever and it would come back. Eradication seems about as likely to me as eradicating flu.

[quote YankeeinKingArthursCourt]@HesterShaw1

Agree with your suggestions of masks, no large events etc.

Interestingly, the BMJ has evidence that the vast majority of infections ( up to 70%) are from socialising with family and friends ( largely domestic situations b/c of prolonged exposure, sharing food, toilets etc).
And the BMJ has a good chart demonstrating infections indoor vs outdoors. Outdoor events can cause risk ( again with prolonged exposure).
I'll try to find the links.[/quote]
I'm not saying completely unfettered socialising with family and friends indoors. Nor that packed crowds are risk free because they are outside.

However it is interesting to note (again) that all summer long here in Cornwall we were promised that a massive spike was just around the corner, because of crowded beaches and streets. It was busier than it had ever been. That spike never came.

You can't simply say to people "You must be on your own for several months" and expect it to be ok, even if they don't catch covid.

BMJ transmission chart attached ( I hope)

Yes I think he did lockdown certainly London too late.

But would that really change where we would be now?

@MarshaBradyo given what we didn't do, and was widely queried in the media, we could have done a huge amount better, and much earlier.

Interesting you think human relationships are so unimportant.

Where exactly did I say that? Or say that what you wanted in terms of seeing loved ones or being able to socialise outside was wrong?

I read your previous post as you saying that for you these two things were the most important. I didn't say there was anything wrong with you feeling that way.

I'm sorry @DeadFuschia. I really hope it is not too late for your husband.

@Quartz2208

Yes I think he did lockdown certainly London too late.

But would that really change where we would be now?

I doubt it. On the curve NE locked down early but on release it hits

plenty of NHS staff are home, isolating or with covid.
it is not all about teachers

@IncandescentSilver - I had no idea about the impact this has had on sports venues in Scotland.

Other sports seem to be OK in England so far - just the iceskating (at least where we live) is closed.

At least I should be grateful that we can do all the other sports that we love.

The NHS is screwed because of ten years of Tory austerity underfunding it.
The NHS is understaffed because of Brexit and the Hostile Environment.
The NHS nearly falls over every winter.

The answer to that is to properly fund the public sector
and then COVID would be less of an issue

Re locking down earlier. My home country of Ireland was widely lauded at the time for locking down earlier than the UK (I think by a fortnight IIRC?), and for testing more early on. Confirmed infection levels were suppressed down to almost nothing when Ireland began the reopening process. Now Irish cases per million are about comparable to the UK's, Dublin is back under tough restrictions and the debate in the Irish media is exactly the same as the one in the UK media.

@ListeningQuietly agree completely. But like if schools were better funded the classes would be smaller and social distancing easier.

Who says you can’t suppress it? I live in the world’s worst affected city. Yesterday, out of 100,000 tests done in my state, less than 1% came back positive. We’re reopening slowly and sensibly. Huge mistakes were made way back in February and March, no one wants to see us go back to those days and most people will do everything they personally can to prevent that. It may well come back, time will tell, but at least we’ll be better prepared this time.

I agree with you OP that the 'cure' is starting to look worse than the disease. The only way to contain the virus before we have a vaccine is to lock the country down for a good couple of months and stop anyone coming with it. Small countries in the middle of nowhere, like New Zealand, have managed this and somehow don't seem to mind that they're prisoners in their own country, but anything short of that will mean either mean allowing herd immunity to develop or a constant rolling lockdowns as flare-ups occur and are tamped down. Because most nations have gone for the lockdown method their populations are not building up immunity and they're wrecking their economies in the process.

What is the govt's over-arching plan? That's what I'd like to know. We had 'save the NHS', okay, but the NHS has been saved, we have comparatively few people in hospital, the Nightingales on standby, some effective therapies and drugs available now that weren't available back in April, so what now????

I think it's a no win situation.

I don't think it's just about protecting 80 year olds, and I don't claim to know everything. But the NHS was presumably stretched already. If we allow a still new virus to run freely then the NHS will become too overwhelmed to treat everyone, not only for Covid but other things. People will get scared and stop going out, people will get sick and be off work.

If we lockdown we deprive children of their formal education, and more vulnerable children of the safety of school and the watchful eye of the community. We shut down whole industries. We ruin people's livelihoods and well being. We haven't seen nothing yet of the consequences of the job losses, I think the aftershock will be felt for a long time.

The government have got to balance things out somehow and prioritise. They can't please everyone.

No idea what the solution is but it isn't to let it run freely, or to lock us all down.

I wish people would take all the precautions they possibly can.

I know people who've had long Covid - but even they are recovering now.

I am one of these, but my goodness, it’s been a shit six months, the first three of which I was completely unable to work, or barely get out of bed. It was also the most terrifying illness I’ve ever had. I think to condemn a large proportion of the country to this would be a callous option. People don’t really understand what long Covid is like unless they’ve lived it.

From a more practical point of view, if you have a huge proportion of the workforce suffering with the terrible fatigue and other issues which go alongside long Covid, I can’t imagine the economy will hold up too well under that either. I’ve also taken a lot of GP and hospital time during my recovery. My GP said they are utterly overwhelmed with long Covid patients just from the March/April cohort.

I agree with you that there’s no good solution to this. We seem to me to be up shit creek whatever solution we take. But I can’t see that letting it run unchecked is a viable one.

Absolutely mental

Hopefully the Tory backbench rebellion will strip this gov of its power to rule by emergency decree next week

@starsparkle08

I’m with you OP .

Think of all the indirect deaths from lack of cancer care ,suicides increasing , domestic violence increasing , lack of organ transplants taking place , I would like to know the figures of these

Most people who get Covid get it mildly . The virus is in nature’s hands . We all go to the supermarkets and touch things others have touched . I see many people wearing masks with their noses poking out . Touching your face is more likely with a mask , adjusting it etc .

It’s such a depressing way to live life and I feel for those in abusive relationships and the increase of suicides due to social isolation and many other reasons that have contributed due to Covid

Thankfully the ONS figures published thus far for the "Covid" age show that suicides are at an all time low since 2001 in the UK.

@ILoveYou3000

Think of all the indirect deaths from lack of cancer care , lack of organ transplants taking place

I may be wrong but haven't these been halted because of the medications/treatments involved - immunosuppressants - which make someone more susceptible to Covid and more likely to die if infected.

The only way around this is to pick a hospital, completely isolate it and its staff from everyone else and send all cancer patients/transplant patients there from all over the UK. A giant bubble of sorts to eliminate the risk for those most vulnerable while still being able to treat. I assume this hasn't happened because it's impractical/impossible so while Covid numbers remain at the level they are it's more dangerous for these patients to receive treatment which trashes their immune systems.

No you are wrong.

They have been cancelled as hospitals have been largely closed due to CV19. Nothing to do with immunosuppressants in the case of my DH.

GP on telephone calls only - you cant see cancer on a phone call
People afraid to go to A&E or call an ambulance

@zafferana

I agree with you OP that the 'cure' is starting to look worse than the disease. The only way to contain the virus before we have a vaccine is to lock the country down for a good couple of months and stop anyone coming with it. Small countries in the middle of nowhere, like New Zealand, have managed this and somehow don't seem to mind that they're prisoners in their own country, but anything short of that will mean either mean allowing herd immunity to develop or a constant rolling lockdowns as flare-ups occur and are tamped down. Because most nations have gone for the lockdown method their populations are not building up immunity and they're wrecking their economies in the process.

What is the govt's over-arching plan? That's what I'd like to know. We had 'save the NHS', okay, but the NHS has been saved, we have comparatively few people in hospital, the Nightingales on standby, some effective therapies and drugs available now that weren't available back in April, so what now????

We do it all again in winter with rising numbers and try not to overwhelm healthcare provision like last time.

Like we didn’t last time that is

I lost a parent to cancer. I was young, he was young (32).

For that reason I cannot and will not put my children in the position of being orphans. If I can avoid them living the life I did, then I will lock down for as long as I need to.

@Pachonga the thing is as you say it may well come back, so suppression is an experiment. It’s all an experiment, the long term effect of social distancing is another one.

I am "getting on with it". My 2 DC go to school. I work on a front line job.I do not work from home. I go to the supermarket and queue up with a mask on. I go to the shops and buy stuff. I have had Coronavirus. I just had a flu jab. I see my dad and keep 2 metres away from him. I see my in-laws and keep 2 metres away. I see my friends outside and we don't hug or kiss each other. I'm not complaining about Coronavirus, despite having a family member die of it. I go to restaurants. I understand that this winter is going to be difficult and we will make the best of it.

That is getting on with it..without any drama.