Is it really worth all this?

[Dustballs]

What are we shutting down for? What are we trying to save?

I don't understand what the purpose of this is anymore.

I can see your point @weepingwillow22 - and what you say scares me @Pachonga. I wish I could find out more about what has happened in New York with this. It feels hard to find out much about how other places are managing Covid - in detail.

But @Teateaandmoretea - I very much agree with you too.

My brain so much wants to get to the bottom of this. It feels as though no discussion is happening in government. Rules are being spat out without being thought through and processed.

Just to discuss whether there might be a better or different way for us all to do this.

The biggest thing would be to stop blaming each other and start being nicer. To recognise that the MSM go far and wide searching for something that could look like a crowd in wide lens. To drop virtue signalling and accept most people are just doing their best to cope, walk a mile in their shoes etc. Support people who are finding it difficult rather than shouting irrationally about masks. To thank each other for our efforts, we have all gone without stuff and stick together. Accept that we are all selfish in our own ways. And stop salivating over other countries, we need to follow our own path.

Oh do feck off, FFS!!

Do you know anyone who's died? Because LOTS of us do!!

Your opinion sounds selfish and pathetic to every one of their families.

Embarrassing.

@ILoveYou3000

Interesting you think human relationships are so unimportant.

Where exactly did I say that? Or say that what you wanted in terms of seeing loved ones or being able to socialise outside was wrong?

I read your previous post as you saying that for you these two things were the most important. I didn't say there was anything wrong with you feeling that way.

Ah ok, in that case I misunderstood your post. I apologise.

ktp
Lots of UK people have died - about 10,000 a week, every week,
of whom only a small fraction had covid

Lets remember the other lives as well

Do you know anyone who's died? Because LOTS of us do!!

^^I suspect we all know people who have died. Covid isn’t the only thing you can die from, however and we need to keep that in mind.

What surprises me is that there weren't more objections to the idea that everyone had to sit at home for months because the health system wasn't good enough to cope. The message was 'protect the NHS' - ie you had to potentially lose your job, your business or your entire livelihood, and your children had to lose their education to protect a public service that was supposed to be there to help people. It's bizarre when you think about it - destroying the economy to 'protect' the health system.

Yes - why did we all go along so passively, giving up so much, to save the NHS that largely only needed saving because it had been so abysmally funded?

to save the NHS that largely only needed saving because it had been so abysmally funded?
This is the bit that people need to remember
when they contact their MP
at the ballot box
when they moan

The UK voted in a pathological liar last December
they should not be surprised at how he hasbehaved

Yes - why did we all go along so passively, giving up so much, to save the NHS that largely only needed saving because it had been so abysmally funded?

In the short term it was perfectly reasonable any health service however great would have struggled.

Also people like to blame ‘the government’. But the people voted for austerity, so it can’t all be blamed on the government.

@Dustballs

What surprises me is that there weren't more objections to the idea that everyone had to sit at home for months because the health system wasn't good enough to cope. The message was 'protect the NHS' - ie you had to potentially lose your job, your business or your entire livelihood, and your children had to lose their education to protect a public service that was supposed to be there to help people. It's bizarre when you think about it - destroying the economy to 'protect' the health system.

Yes - why did we all go along so passively, giving up so much, to save the NHS that largely only needed saving because it had been so abysmally funded?

Isn’t the concept of no health care available when you need it a powerful driver?

Also people might vote differently if a party wants to fix the issue but what could be done now? More funding? We can ask for it by email to MP no guarantee

I have lots doubts about Suppression... so very glad the MPs are fighting for some kind of involvement in the process. That's partly what's missing, wider input to deciding where the balance of risks should lie. Given every decision will cause harm, how do we know we are on a path to minimising harms, or at least making decisions we can look back on and feel they were reasonable and as good as any decisions could have been at the time.

I can live better with continuation of current strategy if it emerges from a more diverse set of people inputting to it, such as the backbencher Tories who want to be able to scrutinise and hold govt to account.

My brain so much wants to get to the bottom of this. It feels as though no discussion is happening in government.

I think that’s a very normal human impulse, we all have a tendency to think “there must be some way to solve this and get us all back to normal now, if only I could puzzle out the truth.” But really, look what’s happening all over the world now. If it was that simple odds are somebody would have cracked it before you.

lljkk indeed.
The lack of discussion within government and wider communities is uncomfortable.

When I heard RS reveal his new measures to the house - in a manner that told me that he didn’t even believe them and mention ‘living with the virus’ I thought oh aye, trouble at mill.

"so very glad the MPs are fighting for some kind of involvement in the process."

They should not have to fight for this. Should they ... When is the vote for this happening?

They really do need more involvement. And maybe that (if they win - which they bloody should) will bring better balance.

One issue is we have to be fast with decisions. Bringing in many voices can slow it down.

There will be a huge amount of discussion Sunak, Hancock, Whitty etc trying to balance economy and health care

@ListeningQuietly

Testing, track and trace should be under the control of LOCAL authorities Decisions on lockdowns should be under the control of LOCAL experts Healthcare allocation should be under the control of LOCAL doctors

not unaccountable wazzocks in Whitehall who have deliberately underfunded the NHS and care homes and schools for a decade

Agreed. The outsourcing of test, track and trace to likes of Serco who have then subcontracted track and track to former travel agents is ridiculous beyond belief.

I don't get it any more either. I understood 'following the science', 'flattening the curve' and 'protecting the NHS'.

I think we seem to have strayed into 'eradicating the virus' (impossible) and 'suppression' without having an acceptable level of risk or end point in place or communicated to us.

I am still not convinced by the hospital measure as I understand this can mean a positive case in any hospital setting (e.g. mental hospital where there are long term patients) and it doesn't mean that the person was admitting with covid.

If we were basing our decisions on people who are in intensive care because of covid that's another matter

Because the number of people who are being admitted to hospital with COVID each day are rising very quickly in September. The numbers are low so far but they went from 58 a day on 1 Sept to 314

What happened in September? Everything that could open up did. Hopefully these numbers won't go up any more but if they continue to rise at the same rate we will have a lot of daily admissions by the end of the year. Can you not see that?

ONS figures for England only

1. Total reported admissions to hospital and diagnoses in hospital for COVID 19

01-Aug-20 50 02-Aug-20 57 03-Aug-20 74 04-Aug-20 58 05-Aug-20 60 06-Aug-20 52 07-Aug-20 60 08-Aug-20 78 09-Aug-20 53 10-Aug-20 50 11-Aug-20 63 12-Aug-20 51 13-Aug-20 60 14-Aug-20 55 15-Aug-20 38 16-Aug-20 39 17-Aug-20 46 18-Aug-20 56 19-Aug-20 58 20-Aug-20 45 21-Aug-20 49 22-Aug-20 25 23-Aug-20 44 24-Aug-20 41 25-Aug-20 60 26-Aug-20 52 27-Aug-20 69 28-Aug-20 44 29-Aug-20 52 30-Aug-20 38 31-Aug-20 52 01-Sep-20 58 02-Sep-20 79 03-Sep-20 69 04-Sep-20 67 05-Sep-20 94 06-Sep-20 85 07-Sep-20 84 08-Sep-20 99 09-Sep-20 136 10-Sep-20 143 11-Sep-20 135 12-Sep-20 143 13-Sep-20 153 14-Sep-20 172 15-Sep-20 194 16-Sep-20 183 17-Sep-20 199 18-Sep-20 205 19-Sep-20 204 20-Sep-20 237 21-Sep-20 275 22-Sep-20 268 23-Sep-20 314

The people that voted in an austerity government for 10 years that were in no way equipped to handle the pandemic are the ones that again want the young and poor to face the consequences. The healthcare system is so underfunded middle class people, working from home and able to educate their children want a harsh lockdown because they can afford it.

Because "it's just going to the pub" or "going to a rave". These people might get ill from covid but are unlikely (at the moment) to be financially ruined by the measures in place to control it. I dont blame them, they want what's best for themselves but what I dislike is when people who are in the opposite scenario are brandished as selfish idiots because they're want what's best for themselves too.

At some point the lives we destroy will be more than the ones we save. But because deaths in the future can be explained or rationalized away by the masses as inevitable or just not reported on the media in the same way a sharp spike in deaths is we have forgotten that.

If lots of people get Covid and then are off sick all in one hit, you do realise this will impact the economy and will shut businesses?

@IwishIwasyoda

I don't get it any more either. I understood 'following the science', 'flattening the curve' and 'protecting the NHS'.

I think we seem to have strayed into 'eradicating the virus' (impossible) and 'suppression' without having an acceptable level of risk or end point in place or communicated to us.

I am still not convinced by the hospital measure as I understand this can mean a positive case in any hospital setting (e.g. mental hospital where there are long term patients) and it doesn't mean that the person was admitting with covid.

If we were basing our decisions on people who are in intensive care because of covid that's another matter

We’re back to flatten the next curve

The winter one

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-hospitals-boris-johnson-winter-crisis-emergency-beds-a9242961.html?amp

Article about hospital trusts at black and red level alerts last winter pre Covid.

We have approximately 40,000 vacant nursing positions, 10,000 doctors and 17,000 beds (beds in comparison to 2010 levels). We have fewer doctors per person than almost anywhere else in the EU.

I am not in favour of any further national lockdown and I don't have any answers but I don't think we can just drop SD/masks etc and expect the NHS to absorb additional impact of a greater number of the population getting infected - I'm not talking about deaths just those extra numbers that will need care of some kind.

It's all a bit shit.

bumbling
10,000 people die every week in the UK
The NHS has been on its knees for years due to Tory Austerity
COVID measures are one big gaslight at this stage

Do you honestly thing the Government wants this? They want us out spending and a booming economy.

They have no choice as there is no prior immunity in population if they let this run through unchecked hospitals will be overwhelmed and A&E won’t function.

Look up South America look at what happens if this virus is left unchecked. Bodies in street and mass death. Yes it’s 0.5% ish infection fatality rate but work out the maths on 66million. It’s a v large number!

@Teateaandmoretea

we are not a nation that are capable of taking personal responsibility

Oh do jog on. This sort of nonsense is completely unhelpful.

Is it nonsense though? Research suggests that only18% of people fully quarantine after developing symptoms and only 11% after being told by track and trace that they have been in contact with a confirmed case. DCs bubble were told to isolate due to a confirmed case, one girl has been out and about going shopping with her mum and another has just been to have her nails done. Yep a nation of totally responsible people......I'll jog on.