Is it really worth all this?

[Dustballs]

What are we shutting down for? What are we trying to save?

I don't understand what the purpose of this is anymore.

Not worth it at all!

We are disrupting, restricting and damaging the lives of pretty much every citizen in the country in order to delay the spread of a virus that most people need a test for to find out whether they even have it. A virus with a 99.9% survival rate for an overwhelming majority of the population and a virus with an AVERAGE age of death HIGHER than the average life expectancy of both men and women in the UK. It’s complete madness, founded on a fear campaign started in March which has caused many people to lose sight of reasonable risk factors and turn on one another.
It’s beyond time to incorporate this different strain of the existing coronavirus family into our everyday lives and manage it sensibly, just like we have done for every other coronavirus, pathogen and bacteria that we have lived with for thousands of years without all this hysteria and restrictions.

@GoldenOmber

Do you honestly think the economy won't be impacted if we all 'get back to normal'?

Yes I think people genuinely believe this. We can all just ‘get back to normal’ and the economy will be fine, so long as we all stop making such a fuss about Covid.

The fact that no government in the entire world has managed to do this should be a bit of a clue that it’s not quite that simple, you’d think...

I haven't seen many people genuinely advocating that we get 100% back to total normality.

What I've seen more and more people recognise is that the measures being taken and restrictions on economic life and human relationships are going to cause more harm than good.

Hester what approach would you take? Ie any restrictions?

If we could protect the vulnerable, how would that work?
The virus is cropping up in care homes again. Yet they were meant to be protected

It sounds nice. It's impractical and it's demanding far more of some people than others.

Somehow the vulnerable don't need health support or human contact.

If you want to protect the economy people need confidence.

What I've seen more and more people recognise is that the measures being taken and restrictions on economic life and human relationships are going to cause more harm than good.

Can you point to a country that has taken few or none of these restrictions and has not taken a massive economic hit as a result?

Because I can point to countries that have stamped down hard on the virus and come off lightly economically, and countries that have let the virus spread and been really badly hammered economically. But none that have escaped both the complications damage from the restrictions and the economic damage from the virus spreading.

@MarshaBradyo

Hester what approach would you take? Ie any restrictions?

Christ of course I would. I'm not a bloody sociopath.

Largely what other people have said. Masks in public indoor spaces. Hygiene. A temporary cessation of large, crowded events like Crufts. Improved hygiene and handwashing.

But NOT keeping loved ones apart. And not banning outdoor events, because we know outdoor transmission is negligible. This summer proved that.

@GoldenOmber

What I've seen more and more people recognise is that the measures being taken and restrictions on economic life and human relationships are going to cause more harm than good.

Can you point to a country that has taken few or none of these restrictions and has not taken a massive economic hit as a result?

Because I can point to countries that have stamped down hard on the virus and come off lightly economically, and countries that have let the virus spread and been really badly hammered economically. But none that have escaped both the complications damage from the restrictions and the economic damage from the virus spreading.

I haven't said there will be no impact at all.

Clearly there will be an impact.

Much cleverer people than me have explained why we cannot eliminate a highly contagious virus, or even suppress it.

Yes we can mitigate to a degree.

@Malteserdiet

Not worth it at all!

We are disrupting, restricting and damaging the lives of pretty much every citizen in the country in order to delay the spread of a virus that most people need a test for to find out whether they even have it. A virus with a 99.9% survival rate for an overwhelming majority of the population and a virus with an AVERAGE age of death HIGHER than the average life expectancy of both men and women in the UK. It’s complete madness, founded on a fear campaign started in March which has caused many people to lose sight of reasonable risk factors and turn on one another.
It’s beyond time to incorporate this different strain of the existing coronavirus family into our everyday lives and manage it sensibly, just like we have done for every other coronavirus, pathogen and bacteria that we have lived with for thousands of years without all this hysteria and restrictions.

Death rates, average death ages, etc., are WITH the lockdown from March to July. No one knows what the effects would have been if things had carried on as normal.

Those who need to shield, need to do so and the elderly need to step up and stay away from Corona hazards and let the rest of us get on with it.

This is so simplistic, it's been debunked over and over again, but people return to it.

The reasons this doesn't work are:

• the number of vulnerable people is huge, and includes lots of working age people doctors teachers dentists retail etc etc etc
• the rich vulnerable won't spend anything
• people like me who can just avoid won't spend anything
• long covid is a serious risk to working age people storing up enormous costs for the country
• immunity appears short-lived so it will just re-infect repeatedly potentially
• vulnerable people need care and to access services so can't be shielded anyway
• once a significant percentage of the population is off sick, we would have system breakdown

In short, it's a numbskull idea.

Interestingly Stockholm is looking at a lockdown now too. They also report 15% with 8 weeks+ symptoms. They have fucked their economy too.

Hester where are the main differences to what we’ve got now? As you say no to Crufts so do you mean mass events can happen outside?

Also we can see friends etc, are you in Scotland? Or is it the limit of 6

I’m with you OP .

Think of all the indirect deaths from lack of cancer care ,suicides increasing , domestic violence increasing , lack of organ transplants taking place , I would like to know the figures of these

Most people who get Covid get it mildly . The virus is in nature’s hands . We all go to the supermarkets and touch things others have touched . I see many people wearing masks with their noses poking out . Touching your face is more likely with a mask , adjusting it etc .

It’s such a depressing way to live life and I feel for those in abusive relationships and the increase of suicides due to social isolation and many other reasons that have contributed due to Covid

Much cleverer people than me have explained why we cannot eliminate a highly contagious virus, or even suppress it.

Other countries have done pretty well at suppressing it. I have family in China, their life is fairly close to normal again now. Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia’s doing pretty well now, New Zealand. Norway’s seeing a bit of a rise in cases now but is still doing a lot lot better than we are.

Countries that suppressed it early are doing better than us economically. Needs to be done early on though. And we got hit early so harder to do it in time.

What on Earth kind of cancer care do people think we’ll have in a country where Covid is spreading through the population? You think the NHS will have tons of spare beds around and staff just sitting twiddling their thumbs?

*Largely what other people have said. Masks in public indoor spaces. Hygiene. A temporary cessation of large, crowded events like Crufts. Improved hygiene and handwashing.

But NOT keeping loved ones apart. And not banning outdoor events, because we know outdoor transmission is negligible. This summer proved that.*

So, for you, the priority is being able to see loved ones and outdoor events, neither of which help the economy (outdoor events could buy minimally during the winter as lots of places shut down anyway) but will help the mental health of those who need regular contact with loved ones and outdoor activity.

I'm hoping that more restrictions will not only prevent the NHS being overwhelmed and running out of beds, but maybe also prevent much of the NHS shutting down like in did in March, so surgeries still going ahead, dentists and opticians remaining open, meaning we can not only reduce covid deaths but also reduce excess deaths and health problems caused by people not being able to access the healthcare they need. Whether this will be the case remains to be seen though.

This sounds ridiculous, but we’re in a global pandemic. Everyone’s economy will be significantly damaged.
Can’t the world have a mutual agreement to write off debts and print more money. Yes I know it sounds absurd but this is a global effort, not unique to one country let alone a continent...
So the debts borrowed would essentially just be cancelled. A once in a century event if you will. This isn’t even like a war, where countries get into debt to fight another side.
I know it’s utter nonsense just sharing a thought...

I actually want my family to get it now - so we can build immunity/T cells to fight Covid now, next year or whenever. It's endemic now. They'll need immunity. And surely it's better to get sick, now, when they're young - rather than later on.

I don't believe a vaccine will be as effective as actually having had the virus itself.

There’s stupid and then there’s fucking stupid

Be careful what you wish for

Yes China have done excellently well at suppressing it.

However people here are having trouble following the UK restrictions. How would you expect them to fare under a China style suppression policy? And how would rule breakers be dealt with? The army?

A Melbourne style lockdown anyone? A bit of physically enforced mask wearing onto a woman who was exempt?

Oh the Norway comparison - a country that is even less densely populated than Sweden. Yet still their cases rise.

New Zealand - Mrs Adern with her TV appearance when she pleasantly told her people they would be compelled to stay in quarantine camps indefinitely until they had submitted to testing.

Cases will rise. That's how viruses work. We can't eliminate this.

@HesterShaw1

Agree with your suggestions of masks, no large events etc.

Interestingly, the BMJ has evidence that the vast majority of infections ( up to 70%) are from socialising with family and friends ( largely domestic situations b/c of prolonged exposure, sharing food, toilets etc).
And the BMJ has a good chart demonstrating infections indoor vs outdoors. Outdoor events can cause risk ( again with prolonged exposure).
I'll try to find the links.

I hear you OP and I feel you.

It's exhausting, we're on our knees and we can't go through the last six months all over again.

But we'll do it and we'll complain the whole while.

But then we'll look back in five years and question how we did it, but be thankful that we did.

It's shit, it's so fucking shit. But it's not forever.

And we got hit early so harder to do it in time

The UK had time. Johnson could have locked down one week earlier and made a huge difference.

@ILoveYou3000

*Largely what other people have said. Masks in public indoor spaces. Hygiene. A temporary cessation of large, crowded events like Crufts. Improved hygiene and handwashing.

But NOT keeping loved ones apart. And not banning outdoor events, because we know outdoor transmission is negligible. This summer proved that.*

So, for you, the priority is being able to see loved ones and outdoor events, neither of which help the economy (outdoor events could buy minimally during the winter as lots of places shut down anyway) but will help the mental health of those who need regular contact with loved ones and outdoor activity.

Erm no, I didn't say they were my "priorities" They were two examples.

Interesting you think human relationships are so unimportant.

@RepeatSwan

And we got hit early so harder to do it in time

The UK had time. Johnson could have locked down one week earlier and made a huge difference.

To do what NZ and Aus did?

Think of all the indirect deaths from lack of cancer care , lack of organ transplants taking place

I may be wrong but haven't these been halted because of the medications/treatments involved - immunosuppressants - which make someone more susceptible to Covid and more likely to die if infected.

The only way around this is to pick a hospital, completely isolate it and its staff from everyone else and send all cancer patients/transplant patients there from all over the UK. A giant bubble of sorts to eliminate the risk for those most vulnerable while still being able to treat. I assume this hasn't happened because it's impractical/impossible so while Covid numbers remain at the level they are it's more dangerous for these patients to receive treatment which trashes their immune systems.