Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Is it really worth all this?

381 replies

Dustballs · 25/09/2020 13:26

What are we shutting down for? What are we trying to save?

I don't understand what the purpose of this is anymore.

OP posts:
TheSeedsOfADream · 25/09/2020 15:28

Lots of scientific information about Sweden's failure (accepted by their govt and scientists) early on in the Graphs and Numbers thread (among others)
Their mortality rate X population iirc is on a par with Britain.

Itsabeautifuldayheyhey · 25/09/2020 15:32

Life sucks. It gives you parcels of shit whenever it fancies. But that's life. We all have to deal with it.
OP, why don't you just deal with the current situation then and stop moaning?

Tootletum · 25/09/2020 15:32

You did realise when you posted this you'd get these sanctimonious replies. There don't seem to be many economists in the mix. Government hasn't been in this much debt since the war. Unemployment predicted at levels last seen in 1933. As if neither of those things will cost any lives. Apparently shutting down whole swathes of the economy is cost free. I wish I had fairies in the bottom of my garden too...

HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:36

It's all about the exponential numbers. Sadly, I really think most - or maybe just many - people do not understand this.

Yes we keep hearing this from people who appear to be proud that they understand exponential curves.

However lots of the people now questioning those curves recognise that they were based on pure maths and modelling and took no account at all of societal behaviour, or existing non-susceptibility.

The France and Spain infection numbers for example have been rising since August - not exponentially but in a linear way. And their deaths at the moment remain low. Why would we be different? (a question that was everywhere on MN back in March and April). Whitty and Vallance said themselves that their Graphs of Doom were not a prediction but rather a scare tactic.

I know it's only a joke, but something along these lines

Is it really worth all this?
MarshaBradyo · 25/09/2020 15:36

@Tootletum

You did realise when you posted this you'd get these sanctimonious replies. There don't seem to be many economists in the mix. Government hasn't been in this much debt since the war. Unemployment predicted at levels last seen in 1933. As if neither of those things will cost any lives. Apparently shutting down whole swathes of the economy is cost free. I wish I had fairies in the bottom of my garden too...
Unfortunately for us we’ve been hit hard with high number of deaths and economically.

There is a correlation between protecting health and economy.

Is it really worth all this?
HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:38

[quote ILoveYou3000]@WokesFromHome you do realise that it isn't only the elderly who are vulnerable don't you?

When you say 'let the rest of us get on with it', what do you mean by that? What does getting on with it mean?[/quote]
I imagine "getting on with it" in this instance means continuing to pay taxes before the country goes bankrupt. That's quite important.

Tootletum · 25/09/2020 15:38

@Dustballs I agree with all of your points but mumsnet is lost to some sort of obsession with control. Take a subscription to the Spectator (I just have to hold my nose about Rod Liddle) and you'll find many similar views to your own. The comments there are far more mixed views.

WokesFromHome · 25/09/2020 15:39

Those who need to shield, need to do so and the elderly need to step up and stay away from Corona hazards and let the rest of us get on with it.

Yes, I do know not only the elderly are vulnerable hence the first part of the sentence that you missed.

The rest of us are the under 65's who have no known medical conditions and would probably have a very mild illness.

MarshaBradyo · 25/09/2020 15:40

It’s not that hard to see that what we need to do is run just under healthcare capacity.

If we go over it then it’s not just Covid illness untreated.

TheSeedsOfADream · 25/09/2020 15:41

The Spectator. Grin
The one Boris edited then gifted to Cummings's wife to keep her quiet?

Such a bastion of propriety and unbiased journalism.

Hilleni · 25/09/2020 15:42

It's so shit.

WokesFromHome · 25/09/2020 15:42

Yes I do mean that Hester.

I have actually had Covid and was quite sick, so has my DH and my 2 DC very mildly. One of our elderly relatives caught Covid and died a few months ago. I still think that those of us who can, need to just crack on with life and keep the country going before we end up with catastrophic economic consequences.

PhilCornwall1 · 25/09/2020 15:43

@Thisisneverending

Saving lives!
Certainly not this.
HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:43

@TheSeedsOfADream

The Spectator. Grin The one Boris edited then gifted to Cummings's wife to keep her quiet?

Such a bastion of propriety and unbiased journalism.

Yes and so it's all the more remarkable that it has abandoned its support for Johnson, along with the Times, the Sun, and the Telegraph.
Wotsitsarecheesy · 25/09/2020 15:45

@AntiHop

But now I'm not a 100% believer anymore.
Here lies your problem @Dustballs.

It is not about "belief". It is not a religion. Through the lockdown earlier this year, many lives were saved.

But it is about belief. The scientists don't all agree. The government are not releasing all the relevant data. We are being asked to trust the Government and it's advisers, when other equally (or more) reputable scientists are very clear that they believe Government's approach to be wrong.

Already, covid 19 is way down on the list of things likely to kill you. The number of excess deaths caused by lockdown is massive, and rising. The following is a quote from a Daily Telegraph article:

Patients dying at home from causes other than Covid-19 are fuelling excess deaths across the UK, official figures show. The data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than 6,700 extra deaths in homes across the UK in the past two months – of which just 203 involved coronavirus. The statistics show deaths from other causes are soaring, amid concern that millions of patients went untreated for killer diseases during lockdown.

It goes on to list the deaths for particular conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure and cardiac arrhythmia - all of which are way higher than normal. The British Heart Foundation is quoted as being particularly concerned about the number of excess deaths for heart related issues in younger people that indicate a lack of support. Then there are all the other lockdown related non-covid deaths that are also increasing such as suicides, domestic violence killings.

A while ago I saw a few articles that estimated that lockdown had already caused almost as many deaths as covid, and that this was likely to increase further. A sky news report, quoting ONS statistics, said that for every 3 covid deaths, another 2 had been caused by lockdown. That 41% of the excess deaths between March and May were caused by missed medical care (for other conditions) rather than covid. And this doesn't even consider the worsened quality of life for those who may not die, but whose conditions are far more severe than they would have been, had their operations/treatments not been cancelled.

The government is relying on us to follow the new restrictions because if we don't there may be a serious spike in covid deaths, which the NHS may or may not cope with. But when it goes with the 'project fear' approach using models that don't seem to be based in reality, and won't address the totally valid concerns put by reputable scientists like Prof Sunetra Gupta of Oxford University - well it just makes us not trust the government at all.

I am fully of the opinion that we need to learn to live with it. Those that are vulnerable (I am one of them) should decide how much risk they want to take. Those that aren't should be allowed to get on with things. Yes to masks in enclosed spaces, yes to sensible social distancing. Yes to increased hand washing/sanitising before entering/leaving places. But no to rules restricting households mixing, particularly outside. No to the ridiculous rule of 6, whereby if my parents visit us they drive down together (they won't come alone) then only one of them can come inside while the other sits in the car, and then they swap over, before driving home together again. Meets the guidelines but is nonsensical. No to restrictions on gatherings outside, where social distancing can be observed. Let people make their own choices that fit their own circumstances.

Blimey, that was long! Sorry!

ILoveYou3000 · 25/09/2020 15:46

As if neither of those things will cost any lives. Apparently shutting down whole swathes of the economy is cost free. I wish I had fairies in the bottom of my garden too...

Absolutely no one has said this. Do you honestly think the economy won't be impacted if we all 'get back to normal'?

It's about balance and finding a way to keep as much of the economy going as possible while slowing down the spread of the virus. And right now nowhere has figured out this balance. Some places are doing a lot better than others, but seemingly the thing they have in common in the willingness to comply with any/all restrictions by their citizens.

HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:47

Thank goodness people are starting to discuss this more rationally instead of just shouting about selfishness.

Somewhere a balance needs to be struck.

HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:48

Excellent post @Wotsitsarecheesy

DeadFuschia · 25/09/2020 15:48

@Thisisneverending

Saving lives!
We are not saving lives

We are killing people. The lack of access to the NHS is a time bomb

My DH had his cancer follow up cancelled in April. Then in August

Now he is very ill and it is an emergency

CV19 has killed him- it might say cancer (a very curable and apparently non fatal kind which he had been treated for and was ok- treatment ended in Feb with no follow up ) on his death certificate but it is CV19 and the government and the NHS response.

We NEED to fight back

Please please contact your MPs and say why we need to have a fully functional NHS

It could be you or your family

It looks like it is too late for us- fight to save others,

ILoveYou3000 · 25/09/2020 15:50

*Yes, I do know not only the elderly are vulnerable hence the first part of the sentence that you missed.

The rest of us are the under 65's who have no known medical conditions and would probably have a very mild illness.*

And how do you propose they get on with it? I'm genuinely curious because people keep saying this without ever expanding on what getting on with it looks like.

ILoveYou3000 · 25/09/2020 15:51

Those who need to shield, need to do so and the elderly need to step up and stay away from Corona hazards and let the rest of us get on with it.

Sorry, also what do you mean by Corona Hazards? And how do you propose all elderly plus those shielding and their families stay away from these if everyone else is just getting on with it?

PhilCornwall1 · 25/09/2020 15:52

@HesterShaw1

Thank goodness people are starting to discuss this more rationally instead of just shouting about selfishness.

Somewhere a balance needs to be struck.

Oh, some are still shouting about selfishness.

What those lot need to understand is, people will prioritise their own needs over others. I most certainly prioritise the needs of my family over others, always have and always will, others just aren't that important.

If that's selfish, I'm happy to be branded that a thousand times over.

GoldenOmber · 25/09/2020 15:53

Do you honestly think the economy won't be impacted if we all 'get back to normal'?

Yes I think people genuinely believe this. We can all just ‘get back to normal’ and the economy will be fine, so long as we all stop making such a fuss about Covid.

The fact that no government in the entire world has managed to do this should be a bit of a clue that it’s not quite that simple, you’d think...

Alex50 · 25/09/2020 15:53

Yes totally agree, we need a model more like Sweden or certain industries are going to be lost forever.

HesterShaw1 · 25/09/2020 15:55

Oh yes there are still loads of people yelling about selfishness.

But discussing the alternative no longer automatically means you are murderer.

"Selfish" is one of the words I never wish to hear again after this is over. It's incredibly subjective. Obviously people care more about their loved ones than people they have never met. What many of the people shouting "selfish" seem offended by, is that they don't feature higher on other people's priorities.

Swipe left for the next trending thread