Are we allowed 7 people in our house in different rooms?

[Firefliess]

DSD and her BF have come to stay this weekend. We also have DD and DSS and me and DH at home, so that makes 6 of us. DD wants her BF to stay over tomorrow night. I can't figure out whether that's allowed or not. It would mean 7 people in the house, but in no sense would we be "gathering" DD and her BF would get in late and go straight to her room. Rest of us probably we wouldn't even see him. Is that allowed? Or are people considered to be "gathering" simply by being in the same house? We're in England by the way and not in an area with any local lockdown

@Whydoyouthinkthatthen I can't think of anything worse than having 50 people over, pandemic or not.

@Kungfupanda67

I’ve not done either...yet! But they feel within the spirit of the law and lower risk than the alternative ways of meeting the same people.

I could send my DH out to work in a cafe during the DC’s play date. He’d be surrounded by other people from various households, rather than in squirrelled away safely in his home office not interacting with us.

And I could meet 3 friends in a bar or restaurant instead, but that is higher risk than them coming to my house with children sleeping upstairs.

But I’d be intrigued as to weather it is technically legal...I suspect it probably is.

@LemonTT

Actually the lawyers on here can only have an opinion. They will defer to the judges.

But of course - lawyers only ever have opinions so that we can't be sued for prof neg when our opinion differs to that of the judge (we just get very vocal when we express them)

@Bubbinsmakesthree I think (and obvs I'm only expressing an opinion, and am DEFINITELY NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE) you would be wholly within the law if DH stays locked in his office. But woe betide him coming into the kitchen to make a coffee and to stop for a chat.

I also absolutely agree that that is lower risk than any of the other options. (But I also think that two households of 8 mixing in a private house is much less risky than 6 individuals from 6 different households sitting in a pub for 5 hours - but I also recognise that I'm not an epidemiologist, so I won't be mixing two households of 8).

I’m also a lawyer and have read the legislation in some detail. From a strict legal interpretation I don’t think the daughter and boyfriend are part of the gathering and are therefore not in breach of the Regs. Of course, there is still the possibility that you could be issued with a fixed penalty notice which you would then have to argue against in court if you disputed it.

So what about my neighbour who decided to go ahead with her Macmillan Coffee Morning with timed 1 hr slots for groups of 5 guests at a time?
She had two slots this morning and two this afternoon. So, all technically legal as always only groups/gatherings of 6 and no 'mingling'.
And yet, by the end of the day she will have had 21 different households pass through her conservatory!

I didn't go, but even if she had santiser/masks etc (doubtful, as tea and cake being consumed) then in my mind that's a lot more risky than having an extra person asleep upstairs who doesn't meet anyone else in the family.

I just spoke to Boris. he told me no more than 6 in the house at any one time, even if you lock your granny in the attic with the cat. Still will count. That's the god's honest truth, so all you 'Mumsnet Lawyers' are wrong.

People who are saying 'no more than 6 in house and garden'
What happens when there are 4 different houses that share the same garden?
Total people = 18. Is the government really going to enforce sone of those people not being allowed in their own garden?

I have not read the regs to consider the shared garden point. I assume as long as they stick to 4 corners of the garden and do not gather they are fine.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-54295144?at_custom1=link&at_custom4=106661DC-FF28-11EA-B096-31654D484DA4&at_campaign=64&at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=Regional+BBC+Yorkshire+&at_custom2=facebook_page&fbclid=IwAR2g9BBxVi_XRhkNjBiTjFpP-o9VlF7GJUDM-64NDIZiuKvyZG_GRWXxAo8
Leeds household mixing ban announced....but what do we really thinking 'mixing' means?

Of course the lawyers on this thread, of whom I’m one, are only giving their opinion and if you wanted a definitive answer you’d need to test it in court but realistically a court faced with new legislation which significantly restricts civil liberties isn’t going to interpret “gathering” to mean people in different rooms not interacting when the definition refers to interaction. I would never claim absolute certainty about how legislation would be interpreted in court but this is fairly clear cut. I wouldn’t even describe it as a loophole.

If the law is actually meant to mean that more than 6 people from more than one household shouldn’t be in the same house together even in separate groups it would lead to some very strange results. For example - there is a family of four. Teenager sneaks boyfriend in without parents knowing. This doesn’t breach the rule of six because there are now 5. Grandparents come round. Mother thinks this is fine because she doesn’t know about the boyfriend upstairs but actually there are seven in the house. Teenager doesn’t know that the rule of six has been broken because she didn’t hear her grandparents come in. So everyone in the house is breaking criminal law despite none of them being aware that more than six are present.

This article from the BBC is pretty easy to understand and has this handy table for ‘at a glance’ clarity re the rules

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51506729

Our opinion (solicitors) having read the rules is that if you are not at the “meeting” you are not adding towards the 6.

@PinkkLady

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

This

So everyone in the house is breaking criminal law despite none of them being aware that more than six are present

I hate to say it but this doesn't seem a good example. You can imagine plenty of examples where people break the law accidentally and the courts and law are quite used to it. It doesn't negate all of criminal law. The point here is that it is deliberate.

For those who believe it's ok, can you explain whether having 6 people in every room of your house that can fit them would also be ok?

The rules are about gatherings and we gave what the law says about what is a gathering. If you have 20 children and they live with you you can live with the 22 people in the household. If you are a couple with 2 children upstairs asleep you can have 2 other couples downstairs for dinner as long as you don't bring the children down or involve them in the event and no popping up to see them asleep as that is at risk of gathering.

Whereas having 20 people a house part at your house breaks the law. The difficult issue is if you invite 5 and 20 turn up and you cannot push them away. I suppose your duty then is to call the police or a private security company or your largest neighbours and have therm remove the gate crashers.

As usual the rules aren't crystal clear. You can't MEET as a group of 7 or more, so if six of you you are on a different floor to someone else you are not meeting them. Or even in a different room. I haven't searched the Gov website extensively so if someone else has a link to definitive guidance about this I'd be interested. That said we're not doing that here even though we've got separate buildings.

If you are a couple with 2 children upstairs asleep you can have 2 other couples downstairs for dinner as long as you don't bring the children down or involve them in the event and no popping up to see them asleep as that is at risk of gathering.
Actually 4 people could pop up to see them asleep, because we haven't been told to keep our meetings to the same set of people.

That said, although I realise there are big loopholes, I definitely wouldn't do this as the chances of children coming down to join the gathering are high!

@notevenat20 Well yes there are strict liability offences but most criminal offences require mens rea i.e. an element of intent / recklessness and, without going into detail, there is a rebuttable presumption that they do.

In any case, I was just making the point that an interpretation of "participate in a gathering" (the wording in legislation) which applies to people being in separate rooms who don't interact and may not even know that each other are present is very strained and unfair, particularly given how the term "gathering" is defined in legislation.

Note the requirement to "participate" in the gathering too. I don't think someone asleep in their bed is participating in a gathering with other sleeping people.

If you invited 30 people round for a party and split them between 5 rooms you would probably have an uphill battle persuading the police / courts that they weren't all part of the same gathering. But if I invite five friends round for a book club in the lounge and my husband has his parents round in the kitchen and the groups don't interact I would say that's two separate gatherings and legal (not that we're going to do that).

Maybe the virus will help reduce the amount of people who lack the ability to count to 6.

In England- NO

I just spoke to Boris. he told me no more than 6 in the house at any one time, even if you lock your granny in the attic with the cat. Still will count. That's the god's honest truth, so all you 'Mumsnet Lawyers' are wrong.
Well he needs to put it on his Government website then, instead of relying on his trusty pal Tadpoles and froglets to relay the message through Mumsnet.

@Iamblossom

You will presumably:

All walk through the same front door, possibly touch said door
Use the same toilet/bath/kitchen sink
Use the same kitchen cupboard door handles
Touch the same bannister as you go up or down the stairs
Breath the same air as it travels around your house

How is this difficult to get your head round? It's an infection, you can pass it to others you are physically close to if you have it yourself, to get rid of it we need to be around other people we don't live with less. It really isn't rocket science.

But then almost all that could happen in a perfectly legal scenario. For instance, with four people in the family I could have two of my friends round tomorrow morning and two of DH's friends round in the afternoon, and that would be perfectly legal. The morning people could touch the cupboard, loos, sinks, bannisters etc. OK, they're not breathing much of the same air, but realistically the chances of catching Covid from air just by going down the same staircase are minute.

@gingerbeerandlemonade

No. All over bbc news, all over government guidelines. Sigh. Why do people not read?

The BBC news and the guidelines are not the law. Only the wording of the statute is law. And the wording of the statute nowhere says that you are not permitted to have more than six people under the same roof. Sigh. Why do people find that so difficult to understand?

FFS. The 'how would a clever lawyer get round the wording of the rules' rather than 'what seems a common sense way to avoid spreading CV' approach is why we're having a second lock down.

Just no.