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Are we allowed 7 people in our house in different rooms?

597 replies

Firefliess · 25/09/2020 00:11

DSD and her BF have come to stay this weekend. We also have DD and DSS and me and DH at home, so that makes 6 of us. DD wants her BF to stay over tomorrow night. I can't figure out whether that's allowed or not. It would mean 7 people in the house, but in no sense would we be "gathering" DD and her BF would get in late and go straight to her room. Rest of us probably we wouldn't even see him. Is that allowed? Or are people considered to be "gathering" simply by being in the same house? We're in England by the way and not in an area with any local lockdown

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Firefliess · 28/09/2020 21:06

@MRex A gathering can take place in a private dwelling. That doesn't mean that a private dwelling is a gathering.

OP posts:
VanGoghsDog · 28/09/2020 22:26

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

What happens in the situation where you are a family of six and have a single person bubbled with your household? As you are technically 7 but single people living alone are still allowed to join another household.
ONE single adult household can bubble with another household.

And you can't swap about. I bubbled with my mum early on (because my dad died - I'm single anyway) and now I'm stuck with her, although we can visit other houses and stay over as long as we socially distance. But if we go back to no mixing, bubbles only, I'd better get used to it!

MRex · 28/09/2020 22:33

@Firefliess - of course it isn't, how random of you. There are specific restrictions related to gathering in private dwellings, you might have noticed it's been under discussion.

nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut · 28/09/2020 22:56

ONE single adult household can bubble with another household.

Yes I got that but what if the household they join is for example 2 adults and 4 kids? The single person makes 7. So is it allowed or isn't it?

What about non resident parents and blended families? If having your step kids over makes it more than 6 people in the house, is that allowed? Are they not allowed to visit their other parent. Or are they considered part of the household even though they dont live there?

MRex · 28/09/2020 23:18

Both are specific exemptions and therefore allowed.

Pobblebonk · 29/09/2020 01:32

@notevenat20

In case it isn't obvious, it makes a difference what sort of lawyer you are. I wouldn't trust a foot surgeon to be my gynaecologist.
Not entirely. This is basic statutory interpretation, which all lawyers have to deal with.
Pobblebonk · 29/09/2020 01:35

[quote MRex]@Pobblebonk - if you read the law, gatherings have separate restrictions for public spaces (multiple variants) and private dwellings. A gathering defines "the same place"; it then clarifies the terms of "indoors", "private dwelling" etc. It is certainly relevant what the definition is of "place".[/quote]
But the fact remains that the most important issue is the definition of "gathering" which you completely omitted from your earlier message.

MRex · 29/09/2020 06:39

@Pobblebonk - you can't take a word applied to every case ("gathering") and then ignore the differences in restriction in different places. This is only an issue for those who are choosing to ignore the tighter rules applied for a private dwelling than for different types of public space. If you are in doubt about the legal text then read the guidance, it is very clear.

BarbaraofSeville · 29/09/2020 07:13

[quote MRex]@Pobblebonk - you can't take a word applied to every case ("gathering") and then ignore the differences in restriction in different places. This is only an issue for those who are choosing to ignore the tighter rules applied for a private dwelling than for different types of public space. If you are in doubt about the legal text then read the guidance, it is very clear.[/quote]
But that's not how it works. The regulations are the law and certain words in the regulations have a specific definition, in this case gathering.

If you are not gathering, as defined by the regulations, you do not count as one of the 6, for the purposes of the regulations.

The guidance is merely a suggested way of complying the law, if you follow the guidance, you are normally doing enough to comply with the law, but you may also be able to comply with the law in other ways, hence the argument that people who never see or speak to one another are not gathering. The guidance does not trump the regulations, they are supportive to them.

Dee1975 · 29/09/2020 08:07

🤦🏼‍♀️ The rule is 6. No more than 6 ...

MRex · 29/09/2020 08:35

@BarbaraofSeville - this is getting rather repetitive. There is more than one word in the law and different clauses have a relationship with each other. I have explained multiple times that there is a need for people to look at how these relate, because there is a difference in the restrictions for different places that would be looked at by a court. If you still believe there is ambiguity then you should look at the plain English interpretation, which is the guidance. Ultimately you get a fine if a police officer decides to give you one, then you go to court if you want it overturned. It is not in my view sensible to stand in front of a judge and say you read the guidance (which they will be using as their plain English interpretation, due to it being promoted everywhere), you read the law. Then despite clearly having no legal background, you decided to put your own interpretation on the text of the law based on what you perceived to be a loophole and you are asking them to overturn your fine on that basis. It might turn out very expensive and it would be advisable for you to get actual legal advice before attempting that.

Pobblebonk · 29/09/2020 09:24

It really doesn't work like that, Guidance is not and never can be the law when it conflicts with what the law says.

Take a separate issue in special educational needs law. The guidance is the Code of Practice which says that an Education, Health and Care Plan must name a school or type of school to be attended by the child. In relation to cases where it is accepted that a child can't attend a school and needs home tuition, the tribunals (equivalent to courts for SEN purposes) held that a school or type of school had to be named even when it was fully accepted that the child was never going to school. Then everyone had a close look at the regulations, noted that what they actually said - in contrast to the guidance - was that a school/type of school only had to be named if it was appropriate, and it was held by the Upper Tribunal that if no school was appropriate then the relevant section of EHC Plans should just be left blank with home tuition arrangements being set out elsewhere in the EHC Plan. However, the guidance still says that a school/type of school must be named.

If we are to follow what @MRex says, the guidance trumps what the law actually says and the Upper Tribunal has got it wrong. But that cannot be so, not least because the law as passed by Parliament doesn't say what the guidance says.

And that's the situation here. No matter what the respective duties are in relation to indoors and outdoors, the fact remains that what is prohibited is a gathering of more than six, and if there are seven people in a building two of whom never interact with the other five then all concerned are acting lawfully.

For what it's worth, even the guidance isn't as dogmatic as you suggest. It talks about groups of six, not just six people. So even under the guidance, you can have one group of two and another group of five in the same house and that complies with the rules if they are separate.

MRex · 29/09/2020 12:13

@Pobblebonk - I have not suggested that guidance takes precedence over the law, you really need to read what I've actually written.

VanGoghsDog · 29/09/2020 13:14

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

ONE single adult household can bubble with another household.

Yes I got that but what if the household they join is for example 2 adults and 4 kids? The single person makes 7. So is it allowed or isn't it?

What about non resident parents and blended families? If having your step kids over makes it more than 6 people in the house, is that allowed? Are they not allowed to visit their other parent. Or are they considered part of the household even though they dont live there?

Yes, it's allowed. All of that is (currently) allowed.

All this is on the gov website, it's a bit odd that you haven't read it.

Or are you just stirring and trying to make out you're the only person who has considered these scenarios?

Pobblebonk · 29/09/2020 13:46

[quote MRex]@Pobblebonk - I have not suggested that guidance takes precedence over the law, you really need to read what I've actually written.[/quote]
No, you said that guidance should be used where there is ambiguity in the law. That simply isn't the case. The law has to be interpreted on its own wording and in accordance with established statutory interpretation principles. In any event, there isn't realistically any ambiguity in what the regulations say in relation to this issue.

Quaagars · 29/09/2020 14:58

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to find any loophole they can Grin
It's not no more than 6 but yes you can if you put some in another room lol
I mean WTF

Whydoyouthinkthatthen · 29/09/2020 15:17

It is no more than 6 'gathering'. Clearly you cannot have 7 people and 'say that that is fine as someone else was/could have been in another room' if the intention was that all 7 people were meeting.

But if there are some people in the house who WILL NOT meet/interact/see the other people, and they in fact did not, the question is 'are they in the gathering?'

We still (24 pages in) have 2 camps:

No they are not gathering as there is no interaction
Yes they are gathering as they are in the same 'place' (private dwelling plus garden)

As a general rule, the 'more than 6 in a house is fine as long as the gathering is no more than 6' camp are pointing to the legislation, and the 'more than 6 is never OK unless you are in the same household/bubble' are pointing to the guidance, or other media examples.

Which probably boils down to 'You should not do this, but if you feel you really have to, you are probably not breaking the law'.

MoonJelly · 30/09/2020 00:04

@Quaagars

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to find any loophole they can Grin It's not no more than 6 but yes you can if you put some in another room lol I mean WTF
It's not a loophole, it's abiding by what the law actually says.
Bluesheep8 · 30/09/2020 08:37

Let's face it, even Boris wasn't able to explain it yesterday so we've got no chance Grin

Xenia · 30/09/2020 08:50

Those concerned about these laws might want to email their MP this morning as I believe some MPs want to curtail the laws a bit although I don't think the speaker is going to let them put the amendment today.

Without doubt the laws are very complicated even for us lawyers on this topic. It is partly as said above because there are lots of sections never mind exceptions in the law all to be read and then we have had law upon law upon law many amending earlier regulations.

It is not fair on individuals as the lawi s not as simple as some propaganda has said. Eg the rule of six does not apply if you have say 5 children and 32 parents (as my family was). Nor does it apply if you both have 3 step children plus your 2 new children - all visits to the other family are allowed even if that means there are 100 children in the house! So the simple rule of 6 is soon shown to be nothing like as simple even before you get into definition of gathering

Firefliess · 30/09/2020 10:46

32 parents? @Xenia ShockGrin

OP posts:
Xenia · 30/09/2020 13:47

eeek, even I could not manage that. Should have been 2! There will be some polygamous homes though with a lot more eg that man in Canada who has 100 children.

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